How do MMOGames tell stories? How can such storytelling be improved?

Both potential job and a hobby. Contracted for a pitch, but that’s not much of a chunk of change. And actually, the MMO element of it is the new and harder part of the pitch.

Well, I do love games, and some of the older MMOs that I’ve played, and I agree with your point to an extent. But I haven’t tried the big recent next-gen MMOs (money and time issues until now) to see if they have solved some of the problems I’m looking at in some of the ways I’ve been thinking about.

And actually, I have some pretty solid ideas on what we’re going to try and what the design will be, and what I hope will be some pretty ingenious solutions that are as cost-effective as they are coherent with the game world. But it never hurts to hear from other players who may have their own insight into common pet peeves and hurdles, and I don’t want to presume or presuppose anything. What I’m really wondering is if any game has really pulled off a cohesive ongoing story that actually engages the players in the outcome AND has significant twists and turns that haven’t been easily ruined by griefers. I’ve never seen that done in anything I’ve played (and most developers don’t think it’s possible or at least profitably possible at the moment), but I don’t know everything.

Why do YOU want it to be massively multiplayer? Every time Disney comes up with a new animation, they make the animators justify why the want to use animated film instead of any other medium for their project. The answer can’t just be “it’s neat” or “I’m an animator”.

City of Heros has some of the best character creation I’ve seen. Your choices in looks, charater type, origins, and primary/secondary powers really allowed you to make almost any character concept. It was much more rewarding than the usual race/class thing where you are stuck in pre-defined roles. In WoW, however, the classes truely played different and required different stratagies (and appeal to different gamers) whereas most the powers in CoH where the same things with different names.

Other than character creation, CoH didn’t do it for me. The instanced zones kind of took the multiplayerdom out of it, and while the sidekick system that lets you play with signifigantly higher or lower level characters seemed neat, it took away some of the point to leveling. The world felt like a bunch of mortar holding up instances, and there wasn’t really enough in-game justification for those instances.

WoW does a better job, I think, with instances. In WoW, instances are always very extremely hard quests that absolutly cannot be done alone. They may sit in your questlog for a couple weeks because it’s not the sort of thing you can just go out and do- it’s a really really big deal. And then one day you are wandering around and you notice someone is getting together a group for an instance. It’s a grand adventure! It’s something so hard the masses arn’t doing it- only you guys, the great heros, will venture in. It’s something you can get through the game without, but you still do it for the cool stuff and glory of it.

The most obvious route for players to make a real dent in the world is through player interaction. WoW’s faction idea is a start, but it is riddled with flaws. The Sims Online tried hard to foster interplayer drama through ratings and elections, but it didn’t really work out. Perhaps the best examples were in old school MUDs, where player creation and a relative lack of greifers allowed a lot of fun. In MUDs, if you got high level enough you could not only affect the world, you could program the world, and create whatever quests or events or whatever that you wanted. MMPORGs will always be hobbled by having to play to the lowest common denomenator.

I think a good place for discussion would be some work on television vs. film. Television is characterized as a “hot” media, where things move faster and interaction with people and current events is common. Television is also a serial format, where you enjoy something that does not necceasrily have an ongoing plot and has no concrete end. You need to find things in an MMPORPG to keep people “tuning in” week after week. It’s a mistake to think that the only way to tell stories is through a single large and changing narrative. I think the future of stories in game is emergent behaivor- the things that players somehow create themselves. A Tale in the Desert plays a lot with this. I found it a bit too abstract for my taste, but it’s attempts to involve players in the world were not an abysmal failure like the Sims Online.

If you’re interested in having more control of the storyline, guiding the experience of your players, and ensuring that everyone basically has spoilers at the same time, you might consider venturing into the world of Alternate Reality Games (ARGs) instead. They’re somewhat similar to the Tales of the Desert idea, where the main idea is for people to play cooperatively to solve mysteries/puzzles, and less in creating individual characters who can swash and buckle their way into riches.

(For a small explanation and example of what an ARG is, you can check out the “Becoming Part of the Story: The ARG World” entry here, or visit http://www.unfiction.com.)

An added benefit for wannabe game players and developers alike is that ARGs almost always have a limited lifespan – all the ones I’ve followed have a pregame, start-date and eventually some point of completion, usually a schedule known only to the developers. For developers (called “puppetmasters” in the ARG world, heh), this can keep things reasonable and allow you to test your skills and interest without committing the rest of your life away to a universe that will soon get out of your control.

OTOH, I think ARG puppetmasters probably must play a far more active, hands-on role than their MMPRPG counterparts. The whole raison d’etre of ARGs is player interaction, especially with in-game characters, who are usually played by real behind-the-scenes people (as opposed to bots or AI). A big part of the fun is the potential for players to affect the plot somehow – and for the PMs to react quickly and cleverly to any wrenches the players may throw at 'em, such as if someone discovers a hidden website or cracks a puzzle too soon.

The aforementioned Unfiction is a great place to start learning about ARGs, as is reading the “game trail” (i.e. the progression of how folks found clues and in-game websites) related to the most famous and popular ARG to date, The Beast, which was related to the Spielberg film A.I. but developed a life of its own.

Once you’ve learned about the basics of the genre, you can check out Deaddrop to learn about game creation and puppetmastering.

Anyway, just thought I’d toss the idea out there. I think Dopers would make excellent ARG players and PMs, since both the creation and solution of the best ARG puzzles and mysteries often requires some seriously arcane and varied knowledge. (One famous example from the most popular ARG The Beast involved a puzzle/code that could only be solved through knowledge of classical lute tablature!)

The reason for MMO in my case is that the story and concept really demand it. Though actually it’s currently worked up as more of a MMO/Solo hybrid.

I agree, but then most developers feel that while players SAY they want this, they either don’t really, or aren’t considering how ridiculously expensive and complicated creating and managing such a game would be. The problem agreed upon by the industry is that only about 10% or so of players are actually interesting enough and willing to roleplay enough to be characters in part of an interesting user-created story that actually affects the game world in some large scale way, outside of events like elections and ratings, etc., which don’t really work out quite as you mentioned. The real problem is that players are generally just not very good at creating or maintaining any sort of mystery or intrique on their own.

The real trick is finding a balance between on-the-rails storytelling and emergent options without burdening the design team with the task of creating tons and tons of optional additional content for all the different possibilies that most players will never see. For instance, if you really want the story to be able to react and evolve differently in response to the player reactions, then any NPC characters, dialogue, sound, design, etc. all have to be pre-recorded and uploaded to users. You can get rid of NPCs entirely, of course, but that closes doors as well.

Second Life
http://secondlife.com/
is a MMOG, for instance, that is basically all user-created. It has no designed plot, and everything is basically emergent. And while pretty cool as a concept, I’ve found it to be generally pretty darn boring for most types of gamers that aren’t willing to invest tons and tons of time learning to script or carefully creating objects and art. It’s great for artists, and has a neat economy, is even being used for some forms of distance learning and classwork, and is just generally cool.

But for telling a story a designer wants to tell: there’s no there there. It’s not bad, but it doesn’t work for the goal of a storyteller with something to express, whether with emergent elements or no.

It’s not that developers don’t want to do it, it’s just that it is really really hard and most things that try fall flat.

You’re right that you can’t count on players to roleplay or create much. But there are ways to make intrigue betweeen players. I head a proposal for WoW the other day…there is an (unimplemented) honor/dishonor scale, where you gain honor for killing enemies but dishonor for bad behavoir like killing people way below your level or killing people just as they ressurect. Someone proposed that if you get enough dishonor, you should be able to become killed by your own faction and have to live like an outlaw. Bounty hunting dishonorable people could become a new form of gameplay.

I’m still not convinced that games are a great place for traditional storytelling, although some people enjoy interactive-movie type games. Why do YOU play games? I play them because I am facinated with different systems and I enjoy the sense of discovery that comes with exploring a big world and finding items. My best friend enjoys games only because he likes finding new areas. My boyfriend enjoy powergaming, and finding ways to maximize his use of the system- every game is a puzzle game to him. The ideal game either chooses a kind of player and caters to them or trys to find something to appeal to everyone. The ultimate goal I think is emotional appeal, which is usually found through storytelling. But there are different ways to get that.

The biggest turn off, for me, is games where I feel like I’m just walking between cut scenes. It’s hard to make me feel like I actually making a difference, but I need to feel like I’m doing somethng for a good reason. It’s hard to explain…

The big question, I think, is not how do we tell a story despite all these problems. The question is how do we tell a story through action and interaction. How do we use the specific qualities of games to tell stories? Maybe we could look at how stories are told in different games and other environments.

I saw a video of an art exhibit ones. It featured a pair of headphones which played a soundtrack that was recorded so that it blended in with the ambient noise and felt totally realistic. The soundtrack guided you through the streets of an actual city, and a story played out through sound against the backdrop of the actual landscape and the actual current noise. Thats actually a lot like MMPORGS, where you experience a story with a bunch of non-scripted players doing stuff in the background…

Star Wars: Galaxies has had at least one story with consequences. I stopped playing after beta, so I don’t have direct experience, but it was a search for data disks search. Which ever side found the most got some sort of award. (and it affected the next story arc). Tho participating in these are optional.
(sorry so vague, as I said I didn’t play)

Brian

Realistically, anything with mega content creation requirements or any other highly costly activity is going to be a kiss of death. But just letting players be the content also rapidly runs out of steam fast, because either your world isn’t deep enough interaction

Creating conflict is not the same thing as creating intrigue though, and sometimes it even undermines it. Of course, I’m not sure even any SP game has really done TRULY branching storyline very well, let alone any MMOG on the horizon.

This is definately a good system: you need to realistically account for the full range of player behavior: even bad behavior.

I think in many cases games can tell stories better than traditional visual mediums, if done well, because they can so much deeper in terms of content. But I agree: you can’t just play out a movie: that’s a waste, to some extent at least. But at the same time I want the sense that the world is something worth being a part of: it isn’t just a random interesting world at some random time: that you are there at THE time for a good, pivtol reason.

I really do like stories in games: I loved the adventure and RPG games of old. I’m also a twitch FPS gamer. Leveling up and equipment hunts for cool effects or attacks and so forth are certainly interesting, but at the end of the day I want to feel like I’ve been through something epic: and that I’ve crucially affected the action in some way.

I agree: cut scenes are a major turnoff. Though I still don’t think they are interactive enough, this is one reason I’m such a fan of Valve’s HL games when it comes to FPS (which is not very story driven, but should at least be EVENT driven rather than just a bunch of monsters): a no cut scene policy. It’s still very much “on the rails” type FPS gameplay, but there’s never any real feeling of “ok, now the game stops and we tell you some more of the story!”

I guess for me if I want story-oriented gaming, I’m gonna go for a tabletop roleplaying game, or else I’ll experiment with a Neverwinter Nights-type setup, where a single GM creates a world for a small group of players. I’m not convinced that the technology will ever be good enough to duplicate this experience without a dedicated GM.

My CRPG experiences, including MMORPGs, are not for roleplaying: I simply can’t get into roleplaying mode when my character’s actions are so seriously limited.

In a recent tabletop game, we had to assault a fortress. So we talked to three local tribes and convinced them to aid us; scouted out the fortress with the help of one tribe and with magic; came up with elaborate disguises that would get some of us into the fortress’s heart; and constructed a three-pronged plan of attack on the fortress. The GM responded to all this very specifically. It was fantastic.

In WoW, we had to assault a fortress. We could go in the main entrace or a side entrance. We could choose the order in which we killed the mooks inside. That was about it as far as our choices went. There’s very little creativity involved.

Which is fine, but it’s a very different type of entertainment for me; it’s not one where roleplaying figures prominently.

The WoW dishonor system actually provides an interesting look at the limitations of such games. They scrapped the dishonor for killing low-level PCs, because the system could be exploited. (e.g., a group of low-level characters could follow a high-level character around beating on her until she returned the attack and lost honor; or a low-level character could hide in a group of high-level characters, hoping high-level enemies would attack him and lose honor).

In a tabletop game, all it takes is a good GM to say, “Quit that!” when a player gleefully starts exploiting a rules loophole. In a CRPG, the computer doesn’t have the judgment to say, “Quit that!” The rules have to be loophole-free, which often means they have to be less interesting.

Daniel

Preach it, my southpaw brother! Add to that there are legions of players who paly MMOs specifically to spot flaws and exploit them. You find them crowing on the message boards, proud of how they’ve found an exploit and how they’re helping to build a better game :rolleyes: . All they’re doing is reducing the choices and options of players who do not exploit the rules by forcing designers and programmers to work around them.

Well, of course GMs are to some extent a part of MMOGs already.

I think you are confusing storyteling with roleplaying/adventuring. While an on-the-spot GM can be fun and allow the sort of free-ranging experience that I agree won’t ever be as possible with a computer, it’s not the same thing as an extremely well pre-crafted tale. Books have high story content, low character interaction content. Pen and papers can have both, but whatever well-thought out story there is has to be there sort of in the background: it has to be worked into things without disturbing or constraining the action, for fear of the action “contaminating” the story. This is why a lot of people in interactive entertainment generally make it so the interactive “action” is basically a quest to reveal a pre-written backstory or side-story: its already happened, so all the players have to do is discover it as their own particular adventure isn’t itself as story driven (the story is the context of their actions, not an ongoing result of their actions which tells a different, more free-wheeling type of story)

I agree, though of course there are degrees of complexity to the feedback systems. Many MMOGs, unfortunately have scrapped complicated dynamic feedback systems in favor of less interesting static ones, in general because these systems were either too complex for the players to even understand, or because they had lots of unintended consequences. Still, the wheel was invented once, it can be invented again.

That’s one reason I want to make an MMORPG like Shadowrun. Done with the right engine, it could be possible to let players go in at night, sneak into an adjacent building to their target, shoot a grappling line up, slide down, cut through the window and nypass the alarm, sneak about the place down to the 8th floor (when you slid on the 11th), cut your way into the 7th floor secure computer lab, grab the prototype chips, blow a hole in the wall where your blueprint said there was a space left by construction, drop down into the sewers, and climb out in a parking lot 2 blocks down the street.

OK, we might not be able to squeeze that into an MMORPG. But wouldn’t it be damned cool to try? And if the programmers said that it ain’t happening, we could always make an RPG so damned good that it’ll be remembered for the next century. And of course, by 2015, the technology might be there for the MMORPG version.

That sort of experience is already fairly easy to do as a single player game (albiet, doing it well is another matter, but it’s really not much different from the Theif series that already exists!) I’m not sure that the technical capability for that sort of experience is a problem: it’s the coherency. Why are are you attacking all these buildings? Who owns them? Why? After a certain point, it would just get ridiculous: every building in the city is burgled every single night? :slight_smile: That actually might still be fairly fun (though a bit like the scene in Noises Off where three consecutive burglars, all the same character, break into the same house by smashing the same window and using the same opening line), but that’s also a pretty good illustration of the challenge of plausible storytelling with tons of people.

Not necessarily; a good GM will change the story completely to adapt to the characters. IN a game I ran a couple years ago, I had a war refugee camp as a bit of window-dressing; I had no idea the characters would be interested in doing anything about it, and had a whole nother storyline for them to explore once they passed by the camp. But they stopped at the camp and invested a lot of time into it, so I created a different storyline for them to pursue at the camp.

A computer game is going to have a very hard time achieving this sort of interactive storytelling. I mean, sure, you can set up both storylines–but do you also write complete storylines for the little girl with the deformity, and for the priest who evinces inexplicable mistrust of the PCs, and for the thieve’s guild that shows them inexplicable trust, and for the princeling’s worried godmother? At what point do you throw up your hands at the unpredictability of the PCs?

A CRPG inevitably throws its hands up at some point,. and that’s the point where it does storytelling in a manner worse than a live GM.

Daniel

Sure, but no GM is so good as to guarantee a really well tied together story with meaningful forshadowing and mystery and coherency right there on the spot. No GM is going to be as good as a novelist in crafting a story. It’s a different balance of interactivity with story content: a different sort of experience. In games that are a little more on the rails, you give up some interactivity and direction in return for a more well crafted and planned out story with mem message and maybe even moral. A different goal altogether.

Okay, I agree with that.
Daniel

Its a problem I haven’t overlooked. In fact, i’ve been trying to come up with solutions to that very problem, although the odds of me ever being in a position to make my dream come true approach .00001%. I mean, I’m a writer in a limited partnership RPG company - how could I ever get ahold of the resources, contacts, and materials?

In Shadowrun (cyberpunk with magic) they’re all owned by megacorporations. These guys hire you to break in and steal stuff, ruin projects, or get data (the best data is not on the network) among other things; runners might need to take pictures of some nasty experiments for the local papers, shut down an industrial process, find and remove incriminating evidence for someone, be a temporary bodyguard, beat up some racist thugs, find rare magical components, kill off some ghouls, or stop people from doing any of the above.

See above.

Because you’re being paid to. And because that’s how you build your character - every quest or two you get another karma point.

What I’ve been thinking is this: first, there are instanced zones. Second, some of the buildings will be big enough that you could have multiple teams running around one and they’d never interact (such as the arcologies), though they could get in touch and link up. The smaler instanced zones would be randomly created to fulfill a certain plan; character could then try and find a blueprint, which has limited applications, bribe someone to let them ine, etc - all of which would be randomly checked for “possible - can this be done” and “utility - how good is it”.

Yeah, the single player version would certainly be much more consistent than the MMORPG version, but both could be built using the same resources.

You form a team and beg for them from investors. :slight_smile:

Which reminds me: did you have your thread in the Pit from last week deleted, or am I just an idiot who doesn’t know how to use the search function?
Daniel

Err…just figured out that your name is Smiling Bandit, not Starving Artist. Guess the “idiot” explanation is the right one. Nevermind :).

Daniel

The practical answer; the problem here is that Wizkids owns Shadowrun and Microsoft owns the electronic games license (I think; I sent a message asking WK about it so it could be a while before I get an answer if I get any). MS hasn’t made a game based off of it and the SR game system has gone a bit cold because FASA died.

On the other hand, give it a 2-year dev cycle and come out with 4th edition Shadowrun right then (maybe with some cross-marketing discounts in place for buying electronic game and game book). Of course, it might also be a nice laurel for the XBOX 2.

The big problem with finding a team is that I don’t live in California or Seattle. I’d be happy to make the design document (which involves detailing every character, floorplans, dialogue tree, statistical measuring, zones, quests, and so forth) though, if I coud have some way to live while writing it.