How do MMOGames tell stories? How can such storytelling be improved?

Cafe Society
41

The practical answer; the problem here is that Wizkids owns Shadowrun and Microsoft owns the electronic games license (I think; I sent a message asking WK about it so it could be a while before I get an answer if I get any). MS hasn’t made a game based off of it and the SR game system has gone a bit cold because FASA died.

On the other hand, give it a 2-year dev cycle and come out with 4th edition Shadowrun right then (maybe with some cross-marketing discounts in place for buying electronic game and game book). Of course, it might also be a nice laurel for the XBOX 2.

The big problem with finding a team is that I don’t live in California or Seattle. I’d be happy to make the design document (which involves detailing every character, floorplans, dialogue tree, statistical measuring, zones, quests, and so forth) though, if I coud have some way to live while writing it.

What I really want is to have MS back the thing, write up the design doc and adventure with my [business] partner, get Obsidian Entertainment to develop it, license the Source engine and use it right, then go on to make Seattle-net online. That might involve some payments to the city of Seattle, though.

42

Darn simulpost!

I’m sort of an artist but I’m not starving!

43

My real question is: why borrow someone else’s story? I mean, financially, it’s always a win to use an existing franchise. But creatively, if you can’t get the rights to something… well it’s not as if anyone owns the rights to “sci-fi with magic” universes.

44

Final Fantasy XI does have a story and several story branches.

Each of the starting cities, there are 3 of them, are unique and have a unique story line. This story line is covered as ‘Missions’. Each mission will have 2-3 parts of it that develop the story further. As you level your character through fighting, you are able to handle higher and higher missions.

Each city also has ‘Quests.’ Quests are little mini stories. They do tie into the main story some, but you really need to pay attention to them to get the tie in.

There are also Advanced Job Quests you can do to open up more job options for your character. Some of these tie into the world you live in, some don’t. The job I am currently playing, BeastMaster, allows me to use the monsters in the world to fight for me. The quest to get this job involves a cruel beastmaster, a sick chocobo, and his sick son. You basically do a few tasks that bring the cruel beastmaster to soften his approach and help his son. That particular one has nothing that I can really do with the Story line but I wanted to point out that there is a story for it.

The story is developed through Cut Scenes and NPC interaction. The story is also based on the Opening Movie which shows children escaping the bad guys. You later see the kids, now grown up, in towns.

Each zone in the area has it’s own history. Some are just their appearence, some are actual enemy strong points, and some are battle areas that occur in the world’s past. Each zone is mostly unique looking baed on it’s history. For example, Garliage Citadel was a forward attack point that the enemy over ran by getting into a secret enterance. Now when you fight in there, there are bats, skeletons, ghosts etc. They are named for military ranks. You can get through the building security doors and ultimatley out to the secret enterance.

Major zones have what is called “Tablets” in them. You click on the table and you read a diary entry from ancient explorer who describes what he sees in this zone. Very nice touch.

As I mentioned about the 3 cities earlier, they all come together for mission 5 to fight the Shadow Lord. From this point it branches out into a few different places. You can continue on to mission 6 for your city, you can then do expansion missions like “Zilart Missions” and new ones “Crys of Promthian”(SP?)

The story is very good. The problem is that becaue you need to level up to be able to do your missions, you end up forgetting the story line.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Websites have sort of ruined the excitement of the game. You are expected to know exactly where to go, what to do, what to have before you go out on any missions. That being said, there is nobody that really gives away the story line, just because there isn’t. If you wanted to know the complete story line for the game, you can get it, some people on my server are actually tracking every thing and recording it for those that have lost track.

45

That’s true, but making a new game in the license would garner a lot of attention and sales. Also, the Shadowrun setting is really cool; there’d be no way to do a whole new generic setting that would be as good. And they already have vast amounts of material made for it; from nightclubs to crime gangs to political factions…

That and just ripping it off might be more dangerous than I’d prefer. What I had in mind would be pretty blatantly stolen and might earn me lawsuits.

46

Everquest has a “storyline”. At first the storyline was presented via NPCs whom you could hail and have a dialog with, or various racial newspapers, and now there is a storyline that is downloaded with patches, and every player gets to read it. Here is a link to some of the older storyline,and here are various newer ones. (It give the history of the ancestors of the Vah Shir, the Kerrans. There is a seperate history of the Vah Shir as well, it can be found in the Plane of Knowledge Library, for free from one of the NPCs near the Beastlord spell vendors. There are several books detailing it, and it gives more details into the Kerran history too.) Legacy of Ykesha (Click on each of the thumbnails for the other chapters to this part of Norrath’s history. You can also watch flash movie “teaser”. I LOVE the ones titled “Blessing of Mithaniel” and “The Fall of Grobb”.) I was disappointed that I could not find the storyline for Shadows of Luclin. That was an interesting race, to see who would be the first to reach Norrath’s moon, Luclin. Lost Dungeons of Norrath Gates of Discord and Omens of War. I notice that the actual storyline for Omens of War is only available online. It’s very interesting, it continues the adventures of the Wayfarers brotherhood, and it’s founders Morden Rasp, Nedaria Debeian, Tondal Di’Xevar, and thier allay Calliav Giniuar. It’s at a very suspenseful place right now.

47

Actually, probably not. Generally a licensed IP has to have a pretty high mass-market profile to justify building a game around it. Yes, Shadowrun is well-known in pen-n-paper gaming circles, but its not well-known to the general video-gaming audience.

Ah, young padawan, you are giving in to defeat before you have even started! People in our business create whole new worlds from scratch all the time, many of them cooler than Shadowrun.

48

By that statement I meant "The current storyline can only be accessed in game. :o

49

I know. I’ve made two worlds so far (one of which I would rate up there with Shadowrun). But I also have fond memories of Shadowrun. And it has a system and aesthetic that translates well into the computerized world.

But really, how would I start? I mean, who do I talk to, where can I get a team and money for this? I’ve alreadyu got paperwor movign through to start an S-class corporation, and we’ve got enough cash our two pitiful selves, but not for a whole programing team.

Well, I started sketching the plot and locations this afternoon in my head, so if dopers want to give me advice or sign up for the project, invest, or move to Knoxville, I’m all for it.

50

Okay … the first thing to do is to go to Sloperama and read what he has to say about breaking into the game industry and starting your own game company. Tom is a long-time industry veteran and his website has a wealth of good advice.

Basically, though, the start-up route is very, very, very difficult. It’s virtually impossible to get a publisher to even look at a new company’s first game until its all but finished, which means that you will need to self-fund the entire development. If you want to be on the shelves at EB, even for a small game this will run hundreds of thousand dollars, and for something resource intensive like an RPG you’re talking several million.

Did I mention that it’s very difficult?

The industry is also undergoing a cycle of consolidation right now. A lot of little studios are going out of business or being bought up by the bigger players. It’s very hard for a garage operation to compete with the multimillion dollar budgets of the AAA titles. The current trend is toward fewer, bigger companies.

This isn’t to say that there isn’t some room for innovation around the fringes of the industry, but you need to be very canny about the scope of what you’re making.

For example, take a look at Gish. These guys spent a few thousand dollars and coded up a prototype of a really cool new side scroller concept. They showed it off at the Independent Games Festival at GDC last year and got a lot of good press. Now they’re selling it through download on their website.

Basically, your goal shouldn’t be to get a particular game made. Your goal should be to create a sustainable game development operation, and that usually means starting really small, and trying to find some unexpected gameplay twist or other unexploited market niche.

Oh … and don’t expect your story to sell the game. Trust me … it won’t. That doesn’t mean that a good story isn’t important. It just isn’t what moves boxes. Every successful game has a hook. Sometimes it’s a new twist on gamplay (Katamary Damacy), sometimes it’s a license (Spiderman), sometimes it’s an intriguing look(Viewtiful Joe). But the hook is always something that the potential buyer can grasp immediately from glancing at the box. Story doesn’t do that.

51

Oh, I know. I figured my hook was making a truly open gaming experience, where you could destroy the environment in real time, opening up new areas.

For example: Character must get past security door to upper areas to get item

Methods
1: Explosives. Blow it crap from hiding and waste the guards

2: Rip it open with your insane troll strength; beat up guards

3: Use a fake security badge and your chamring personality to con the door guard

4: Slip into an upper floor from another nearby building

5: Bribe a friend to take it out and give it to you, bypassing the whole area.

52

Have you played the games that have tried this? Looking Glass Studios, may they rest in peace, had some crackerjack attempts at it with Thief and with System Shock–and didn’t they do Deus Ex?

And then there was some other game, either a Jurassic Park license or a ripoff of Jurassic Park, that was infamous as a hideous failure at this concept.

I think it would be very educational to tear those games apart, figure out what decisions they made and why. In Deus Ex, for example, you can’t blow up most (or any) walls: why did they decide this?

My guess is that it’s very difficult to model two things:

  1. NPC reactions to loud noises (everyone within a block’s radius should hear the explosion and come running, right? But what if it’s done near a loud noise source that can mask it? Oh, the programming!) and
  2. The ability to blow up walls would become the game’s magic bullet: you’d be able to solve most of the missions just by blowing up walls to bypass the bad guys and traps. And magic bullets aren’t any fun: you want the game to present a variety of challenges.

If I were really serious about doing something like this, I would try to get a job with LucasArts or with Blizzard or Valve or one of the other best companies, spend five or ten years learning the art, and then strike out on my own. I suspect that, now that the trail has already been blazed, this is no longer an arena that’s very friendly to startups with grand ideas: without hard experience, it’s going to be very difficult to break into today’s gaming scene.

Daniel

53

I have to echo this. The gaming industry is, unfortunately, a lot like Hollywood in this respect. Scriptwriters are the lowest of the low: hired guns that do what they are told, and are still pretty much constrained by the technical development of the game in what they can actually put into it.

It’s only a very few special companies where the storywriter has any real power and respect, and those companies came up from the mud or were flukes (Bungie, Valve).

54

Fully destructible anything is a huge technological cripple for most other aspects of the game, not to mention making crafting gameplay very very difficult.

This actually wouldn’t be that hard.

Bingo.

Yep. If you can’t find someone to vouch for you, some way to get tons of money, and some way to deliver a very solid concept with some actual hope of actually getting the features together on time, you are not going anywhere.

I don’t think the industry was necessarily EVER all that friendly to startups with grand ideas though, for what it’s worth. Even those people were just the ones who happened to be in the right place at the right time to make things work.

55

The problem is that in 5-10 years it’ll be too late. Everyone is probably gonna have these features then. Its doing it now that makes it special.

56

Do you think its possible to break in from the side? I mean, with my company and all, I have a pre-set name I may be able to get known later on. I could put together presentations and designs and market the as low-cost licensing: the license would be free, but they get to hire my guys to do low-cost writing for them.

On the bright side, I do have a friend whose going to work at Raven software.

57

random quote from someplace else

IMHO, a personalised storyline in an MMORPG is secondary to the toys available to create your own adventure. (before and after the customer buys the box) emphasis should be placed on creating a setting where unscripted stuff happens.

off the cuff examples:

want a situation where a player will be tempted to infiltrate a building? and not because there’s a quest, not because there’s a scripted storyline telling you to do this, but because it might be fun (“I totally pwned the Burning Dog Legion’s guildhouse yesterday!!11!!1!”). give players/guilds the ability to build and own buildings. render all private ‘item storage facilities’ only as safe as the players can defend them.

let’s say there are two ranges for such environment altering weapons, close combat and short range (10m). it’ll be the defender’s choice to patrol the perimeters against such attacks, or (if they’re filthy rich) upgrade their walls to resist such attacks. in situations where the building is located in a city, setting off such explosives will attract masses of high-level npc guards.

just as you can do these, the defenders also have the option to purchase better doors/guards.

the defenders are responsible for the building’s placement, architecture and points of entrance, within limits.

wouldn’t that be interesting? guilds with traitors. :smiley:
the point is that the storyline is mere dressing in an MMORPG. want to tell a story exactly the way you picture it? write a storybook or a movie script. want to set up a tight simulation of this story the way you picture it? make a single player game. want to set up a world where anything can happen, with real people who might be wont to do crazy stuff? create a world where they have the tools and toys to do so, not put them on tracks.

lastly, while i believe fresh ideas are all good, nothing beats first hand experience. if you’re serious about creating a game, the least you should do is to know the current competition first hand. i am hesistant to submit this post of mine for example, i imagine it will sound pretty naive to those that have actually played an MMORPG.

58

Oh, I never said there wouldn’t be repercussions for certain actions. I was, in fact, thinking of an “evidence counter”: the higher the body count and gunfire, the more problems start.

Since the guards were supposed to be NPC’s, not really.

Nah, thats the job of the level designer.

59

my post wasn’t actually directed at your idea, it’s for Apos’ idea of a cohesive personalised storyline. i’m just using your example to illustrate how more interesting it would be to attack a building made and populated with real people, rather than npcs.

with real people manning the defense of the building, anything can happen.

[ul]
[li]that small contained explosion you’re using to bypass the entrance? the guild’s defense administrator (GDA) had decided to install a (rather costly) alarm, bringing a storm of guards and faction mates down on you. [/li][li]think you can bypass the npc guards with guile? the GDA had chosen to place the guild’s poker room near the entrance, where a dozen guild members are playing some sort of mini-games. [/li][li]slip into an upper floor from another building? the GDA is aware of that entrance and has booby trapped that room.[/li][li]found the place totally unguarded and abandoned? 50 guild members have been waiting patiently outside for you, apparently they want you alive as ransom. [/li][li]you may even find yourself welcomed into the building as you make friends with the guildmembers. after all, it’s not in the script that the building should be looted, and you stand to gain more from a friendship with a strong guild. [/li][/ul]

the point being that in an MMORPG, you’ll want to concentrate on placing elements encouraging the players to interact with each other (strive), rather than play alone or as a group against npcs. the resulting unscripted adventure would be story enough for a tale over livejournal, which is something quite different from the kind of story you get from a book.

60

I’d say it’s worse than Hollywood. A movie or TV show has to have **some ** sort of script as a starting point, no matter how crappy, whereas with many games the development team can basically leave the script as an afterthought, and just cobble something together near the end of development to give the player a little exposition and motivation.

As a result spending serious money to hire a good writer is a very hard sell. I’m the lead designer on a AAA console title right now, but there’s no way I could have gotten my studio head to pay for hiring even a good TV writer to do the script, let alone a Hollywood guy. So I wrote it myself. In fact, I’m doing the final revisions right now so we can start casting after the holidays. I’m no Lawrence Kasdan, but I’m better than all the guys I could afford … .

Most of the good writers I know in the industry are here because they really love games. They know they could be making better money and getting more respect elsewhere.

(BTW, Apos, the reason I haven’t been contributing to the main thrust of your thread is that while I’m very interested in story-telling in single-player games, I just don’t have much interesting to say about MMOs. I don’t play 'em and I don’t work on 'em and I wouldn’t have much to add.)