Hammer fists are legal, as long as they are not to the back of the head, for example.
Yeah, that’s the main scenario I was thinking of, hammering a guy you were astride of.
“…13. Grabbing the clavicle…”
An aside, there’s an application in a kung fu form we learned that does this. It requires a very strong grip (which I don’t have :)). Our sifu demonstrated it on us, it is one of the most disconcerting (and painful) things I’ve ever felt to be dragged around helplessly by the clavicle.
I honestly don’t know about this. In most cases, TBI (concussions and beyond) come from the brain sloshing about and coming to an abrupt stop when it hits the stopped skull. There may be movement that you can’t see, but I’m not sure you can injure the brain directly from hitting a perfectly stationary head. There has to be movement to transmit force to the brain.
Or there could be another mechanism of knocking someone out that is not from this type of injury. Perhaps some doctors can chime in?
There are several considerations to take into account. Some people are born hard hitters and have one punch knock ability. You will hear commentators reference that about certain fighters like George Forman/Tommy Hearns in boxing or Tank Abbot in MMA.
I am an avid fan of boxing and MMA and one of my favorite boxers was a guy named Danny ‘Little Red’ Lopez. The first time I say him I was surprised by how undefined his body was. He looked like a wimp. But he had the ability to throw 12-15 inch punches that would cold cock his opponent.
There are other guys like Bob Sapp from Pride who was a monster 300 lbs. plus and very ripped. He had to hit guys with a series of blows to take them down. Sugar Ray Leonard was like that, too.
As far as MMA gloves go it is easier to knock guys out with just one to a few punches than with boxing gloves.
But you also have to take into account that MMA guys are referred to as ‘strikers’ as opposed to punchers. A boxer specializes by spending 8 hours a day training to hit a guy from the waist up only and is an expert. An MMA fighter has to practice stand up striking with his hands/feet/knees,elbows in addition to take downs and guarding against them, and also trains in ju jitsu, wrestling, etc., so he is more like a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. Just think of a boxer as a pole vaulter in track and field who competes in one event only and an MMA guy who is a decathlete.
And then, finally, some guys have what is called a ‘glass jaw’ and get knocked out easier than the average fighter.
I didn’t read the whole thread, so accept my apologies if my point has already been covered.
Stephen Fry said on one episode of QI that boxing gloves have lead to a huge increase in boxing-related deaths. In bare-knuckle fighting, boxers tend to avoid punching the face or head because it hurts the fists too much to punch bone.
So, I expect the MMA guys aren’t hitting the head as hard as they are theoretically capable of, because they need to protect their hands somewhat.
Sapp was a behemoth with no real training when he started, and watching his fights is sometimes painful. He telegraphs punches, and seems to have trouble getting fast hands, which is quite a lot of the idea of punching. His opponents sometimes look more pushed than punched, which as discussed earlier, lessens their traumatic body response. I’d rather be pushed with a tremendous diesel engine that can pull a semi-trailer than hit by a motorcycle at 20 mph.
I like the decathlete analogy. You can’t make fun of Brian Clay because he can’t qualify for any of the events individually. That’s not what the competition is, and that’s not what he’s trained for. Anderson Silva is currently ruling the UFC middleweight class with an iron fist, and I think it’s almost a given that he would beat the middleweight boxing champ if he’s allowed to kick and wrestle. MMA guys who train for that haven’t beaten him in his last 9 fights, so what chance does the boxer have? Slim. He’ll hit Silva maybe twice before he’s on the ground and getting choked out.
I don’t think this is true. I think the gloves solve the hand-breaking problem (for the most part) even with full force blows. IIRC, it was Tank who first wore gloves (voluntarily) because he broke his hands previously.
Right, he broke his hands, and the gloves help, but do not solve the entire problem.
error
I saw Sapp fight for the second time in a K-1 match against Ologun. He still doesn’t seem to have gotten any training. He’s obviously got strength, but yeah, no real power and no stamina. It’s a real shame that he either hasn’t sought out training or his trainer is shit.
I’m not an expert in sport fighting, but even with what I know about fitness and martial arts I could have him kicking a lot more ass if I had even six months to train him. With his size and strength, I’d have him concentrate on wrestling or jujitsu. I’d tweak his training to try to get more power and stamina, probably at the expense of 10 kg or so of presently useless bulk. And, damn, someone needs to teach him how to throw a decent punch without leaving an opening you could drive a semi through. That, and the dude doesn’t know how to protect his legs. That’s how he lost against Peter Aerts in less than a minute.
Isn’t an uppercut to the chin more likely to cause the the particular brain damage that causes a knockout, while, as happens in ever so many Ultimate Fighting fights, the attempted butt fucking of the guy on the canvas, accompanied by a back-and-forth pummeling of his cranium (Talk about a love-hate relationship! T’was a time when plain, ol’ BOXING was considered too violent. Now it’s violence with homosexual rape.) is not an effective inducement of a knockout, though determining one depends on differentiating a prone guy with brain damage from an unconscious prone guy with brain damage. There was a reason for the old ten count.
The UFC ref’s will stop a fight if a fighter does not appear to be consiously defending themselves. (It’s a little bit of a judgement call, and some fights have had “controversial” stoppages.)
According to the UFC, this policy leads to less damage to the fighters, as the ten count may allow a fighter just enough of an opportunity to regain enough composure to stumble back to their feet, and may have to be pummeled to near unconsiousness several times before the fight ends.
The facts seem to bear that out, at least with regard to head injuries:
When two fighters are on the ground if one receives a blow that causes a brain injury of some type that match is almost always stopped very quickly. Either he stops actively defending himself and turtles up or he gets knocked out. The ten count is more dangerous because if a fighter receives a minor brain injury he is allowed to stand up and recover to fight more. BTW the comparison of grappling to homosexual sex got a little old in middle school wrestling. We get that some people can not watch grappling without giggling but it’s stupid.
MMA matches on TV look way gayer than high-shcool Greco-Roman wrestling.
It’s the addition of fighters that punch on the ground that slows it down, and prevents the constant movement characteristic of grappling.
I am SO sick of the idea that wrestling looks gay. If you don’t like it, don’t watch. Honestly, you really see that? I watch an entire PPV and never think that. I know that those clinches are meant with violent intent.
As for the ten count, that’s another name for “this guy was unable to stand for 8 seconds, so let’s send him back out there in this condition. Maybe he’ll be ok. Probably not. I mean, he did just lose the physical capabilities of a one-year old, so his chances against a grown, trained opponent are slim and none.”
I hate the ten count. It’s cruel. If you can’t intelligently fight, then you should stop.
My wife thinks it looks gay, and she’s neither a sports fan nor a homophobe…
Neither of us is bothered by the fact that it looks gay, we just find it humorous. My biggest complaint is that the gay-looking parts are slow-moving and rather dull. It seems like the fighters are out of breath, and just kinda’ sitting there 'til they can try something besides sitting on top of each other half-exhausted.
We were watching a low-budget MMA event on my local cable channel 14… whatever 14 is in Akron, OH.
Is it possible that the low-budget stuff looks gayer than the top tier MMA events do?
You are a hair confused I believe. Most high school wrestling teams are not Greco-Roman but a different version. Greco-Roman is wrestling focused on the upper body with throws being the main offense. There is no grabbing the opponents legs. High school is generally the type of wrestling people think about when they talk about wrestling. The third main type in the U.S. is Freestyle which is very similar to high school style with some minor variations.
The striking on the ground changes the dynamic quite a bit but I don’t believe that is what slows it down. The fact is generally in the grappling arts as people become more skilled the action slows way down. Watch the Division 1 national championships for example. Generally there is only a couple of points scored the whole match as the competitors wait for the perfect moment. That doesn’t make it less exciting if you understand how the ground game works. They are not making large or grandiose moves but are rather subtly jockeying for position the whole time.
Nope if you think low level stuff looks gay high level will look just the same. I assume the “gay” part is when the guy on bottom has his legs wrapped around the top guy? The point of that is to help control the top mans body and help prevent him from essentially sitting on his chest and punching him. At the same time he is trying to pull the top mans head to his body. This prevents the top man from being able to throw his body into his punches. There is a lot more to it to that but it is the very bare bones basics
What, exactly, would one consider the proper name for what I think of as high-school wrestling?
Thanks for explaining the dynamics of leg-wrapping. Next time I’m watching a match with the wife, I can explain this to her.