How do people end up so poor?

[Broomstick]

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Oh, please – throughout out my entire professional life in corporate America I was attending continuing education multiple times per year, on my own dime when the company wouldn’t pay for it. But now, instead of employing an American in an office to do the work either a computer program is doing it or they can e-mail a request to Bangalore, have someone do it for 1/10 of US minimum wage, and then e-mail it back. No one in the US can compete with that.

I wondered why software costs were so low!

All kidding aside, my degree is in software engineering. I saw the writing on the wall during my first year but finished out anyways. 30 years ago? What were you programming in? COBOL? C?
[/quote]

Why are you assuming I’m in your field? That’s just so weird.

I entered the work force before the PC did, before computers were common in business. Your field pretty much didn’t exist when I first started working. We all thought we’d be taking vacations on the moon before we had computers small enough to fit on a desktop. Didn’t work out that way.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
I’m very good with PHP and SQL variants (e-commerce was my goal) and Monster has tons of PHP developer positions opened throughout the US. I’m sure it’s the same with Ruby On Rails or ASP. Never bothered to learn any of those? They’re quite simple and the pay is extraordinary. Contract and free lance work pays good too.
[/quote]

You do realize that you could be replaced by some guy in India or Hong Kong with the same set of knowledge, right? I mean, there’s no reason you have to be physically present at a particular location, right? So what’s to stop people from hiring someone in the third world to do what you do for less money?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick[/quote

I didn’t make the choice, industry did, and yet I still live with the consequences of decisions OTHER PEOPLE have made. Which is how the real world often is. If someone moves a factory from Tennessee to Mexico it’s not the factory workers’ “choice” that they’re suddenly unemployed.

Oh well.

Learn a new language. They aren’t hard, as I’m sure you know.
[/quote]

This may come as a shock to you, but the Mexicans are a lot more likely to hire other Mexicans than to hire you – for one thing, they’ll work for a hell of a lot less than Americans do. Then there is the problem of trying to immigrate to another country and get working papers.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

Ignored my frugal ways in the rest of this thread? I rat hole money, perhaps too much. I don’t go out to bars, I don’t smoke, I don’t buy expensive electronics (I’m on an 8 year old computer I built in high school), etc. I haven’t bought a pair of shoes in 2 years, for Christ’s sake. I’m the epitome of careful planning. I don’t know anyone my age that saves 70% of their income.
[/quote]

I don’t know anyone your age who does, either – and I don’t believe you do. Sure, I don’t smoke, drink, or go out to bars, either. Haven’t bought a new computer in 14 years (building one in high school wasn’t an option – hell, I remember when we used to use vacuum tubes in electronic stuff!)

I do hope you’re socking money away for the day you’re replaced by someone in the third world willing to work for 10 cents an hour doing the exact same thing you do.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
Apparently you didn’t save enough money then, because if the shit hit the fan in 2007 and it’s 2011 and you’re struggling?
[/quote]

Here we go again – if I’m poor I MUST have done something wrong and deserve it. But keep up that Magic Wall Defense Shield ™. After all, you’re a good person, nothing bad will EVER happen to you!

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

But you know, the industries that were thriving 30 years ago aren’t the same ones thriving today. No one could have predicted three decades ago how today’s world would look. Even 10 years ago, who would have thought an IT related degree is near-worthless in today’s market?

You haven’t lived long enough to see the world change around you.

If I’m young and naive, then you’re ignorant to what the youth of today is capable of, primarily foresight, research, and decision making.
[/quote]

What unadulterated bullshit. Your generation is a flock of frightened sheep, cowed by debt, nihilistic, and afraid to act for your common interests having been successfully divided and conquered by the oligarchs running this country into the sewer. You’re also remarkably selfish

IT degrees aren’t worthless, your skills are. Monster’s search results max out at 1,000 so I can’t tell you how many IT related jobs there are on there, but it maxed out.

That would be great if I had an IT degree, right? Except that doesn’t explain all the unemployed IT people I know, does it?

Here’s an idea – maybe you got hired because you were willing to work for half of what more experienced people were, and were assumed to not know better?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

No, you did do something wrong. Your skills are useless in today’s job market and, according to you, you had prior warning.
[/quote]

Not useless, but there’s something like 200 qualified candidates for every job opening in the field right now, so when I realized that I choose to go into something else – despite having to start again at entry level – rather than beat my head against the wall with one fruitless interview after another. They still have people doing that sort of work, just a hell of a lot fewer of them. And salaries are half what they used to be, even for those that still can find work.

And, this may be news to you, but having only a year or two of warning isn’t really enough to launch a new career when you actually have family depending on you. Or maybe it fits in with your selfishness to simply abandon people when they become burdens? Can’t get a new, four year degree in just a year you know. Or rather, you obviously don’t know that.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

It’s a specialized skilled trade. It’s not unique to my profession either. Welders, plumbers, electricians, etc. can all make more money than myself in institutional settings. Many do.
[/quote]

Yeah, honey – that’s why I’m going into construction. Can’t outsource that. But like I said, you’re not going to be making big bucks the first few years while you’re learning the trade and getting experience.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
But you know, 30 years from now, that’s going to be feasibly outsourced, right? Get real.
[/quote]

You’re working in software and IT? It will be outsourced a lot sooner than that.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Then you’re an idiot, if you could have gotten more for it than $1.

You must really think I’m stupid that I framed the check and paper work rather than cashing it too!
[/quote]

No, I’d consider it in line with the same idiocy that sold a patent for a dollar. If your idea was worth more why didn’t you sell it for more? You got played for a sucker and someone else is profiting from your idea. And laughing at you behind your back.

That’s one of the things that makes me doubt your claim of saving 70% of your income and being all so successful – it doesn’t match up.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

Again, your skills are useless. Hate to break it to you.
[/quote]

Since you don’t even know what my skills ARE that’s a pretty bold statement.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

Nah, the weekly migraines and Imitrex prescription aren’t permanent. Let me tell you, I LOVE sitting in bed on the verge of blacking out for hours while the medicine does it’s job. It’s almost psychedelic after a while.
[/quote]

Do you experience that every single day? Do you still have the use of both hands? Can you still walk at normal speed and not have to worry about falling down?

You get a weekly migraine – oh, yes, I know they hurt, poor baby. But you’re inconvenienced what, once a week? As opposed to being disabled every single day. But hey, you’re young, you know everything, you’re bullet proof.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

When I met him he was earning $100,000 a year and half of it was going to pay medical bills over and above insurance costs. It kept him going for another couple decades, but then the kidney infection (all too common in people with spinal damage) and a small stroke sort of knocked him down for good. Oh, but maybe he should have known in advance all that would happen, right?

Wah wah. You want UHC because you can’t afford the cards life dealt you.
[/quote]

Nope, I was in favor of it even when I worked for Blue Cross and was riding high on the hog. There’s even threads on this forum that show me advocating for it when I was much wealthier and had the best damn insurance next to Congress. It wasn’t being poor that made me think it was a good idea, I’ve been in favor of single-payer for, oh, 20-25 years now. You know – since before you were born.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Please – I seriously doubt whatever issues that came from that accident are anywhere near what my spouse has had to deal with.

Cool, then don’t expect me to be fine with sending my tax dollars to fund any sort of UHC. You’re proud of it, to the point of bragging, so handle it on your own, please.
[/quote]

Oh, you’re just sore you lost the boo-boo contest. Really, in that case – if you develop an expensive illness and can no longer work you’re OK with the rest of us just laying you out on the sidewalk and watching you die? Or will you beg for help?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

Right, again, not my problem. I don’t care about your plight, quit trying to get anymore of my money to handle it.
[/quote]

Now WHERE did I ask YOU for money? Seriously? Haven’t ever asked for a handout here. You are just so terrified the Mean Poor People are going to take your stuff, aren’t you? I just find that so remarkable, that you’re so afraid of people like me.

And you do care – otherwise you wouldn’t be bothering to post here.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

You’re also hurting yourself by smugly assuming you’re immune to misfortune.

I’ve had my misfortune. I paid for it. I’m still paying for it. World keeps spinning.
[/quote]

Oh, good lord – you had a car accident and now you get migraines sometimes. You think that’s terrible? My god, you’re also a spoiled brat as well as selfish. You haven’t a clue what a real obstacle is.

Yeah, I know the migraines hurt. However, there are lot worse things out there in the world than migraines.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Is that your situation? Or have you actually recovered all your prior abilities and functions?

Nah, I hit the genetic lottery. No pre-existing conditions.
[/quote]

WRONG. You get migraines? **You now have a pre-existing condition, congratulations. **Hope you never have to try to shop for individual health insurance, if you do find yourself in that situation you will be screwed.

Seriously, you want to freelance? How are you going to get insurance if you do? You have NO IDEA how screwed you are in that regard. On an individual policy they can exclude everything to do with your migraines, and they’ll do everything they can to blame everything on the damn migraines. You’ll be paying in the five digits for a catastrophic policy with a sky-high deductible and list of exclusions as long as your arm.

Dude, if you don’t work for an employer willing to get you on a group policy there’s a damn good chance you just won’t be able to get health insurance. Even if your state has a high risk pool you’ll see high premiums. Can you pull in a few thousand a month? That’s what it will take. Every single month.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Again, do you actually buy your own insurance, or is it employer-supplied?

Employer pays 4/5ths.
[/quote]

Ah, so you do have an employer-sponsored group plan. Well, that explains why you’re insured with a history of migraines.

Um… good luck with that in the future. You’ll need it.

Oh, by the way, there’s a word/concept you need to know. It’s called recission. Scroll down to the paragraphs on rescission in insurance, read it, wake up, and smell the coffee. You WILL need to know that.

[AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Why are you assuming I’m in your field? That’s just so weird.

IT is not my field. Holy shit you can’t read. I said my degree is in software engineering. I never got a job in it, but did finish out the degree.

I entered the work force before the PC did, before computers were common in business. Your field pretty much didn’t exist when I first started working. We all thought we’d be taking vacations on the moon before we had computers small enough to fit on a desktop. Didn’t work out that way.

Again, not my field. Your reading comprehension isn’t too good, is it? I have a feeling this may be related to your current predicament.

You do realize that you could be replaced by some guy in India or Hong Kong with the same set of knowledge, right? I mean, there’s no reason you have to be physically present at a particular location, right? So what’s to stop people from hiring someone in the third world to do what you do for less money?

Again, I don’t work in the IT or software engineering field hence why I said I saw the writing on the wall but finished the degree anyways. Oh, don’t forget the times I’ve mentioned I worked a skilled trade and not anything IT related.

This may come as a shock to you, but the Mexicans are a lot more likely to hire other Mexicans than to hire you – for one thing, they’ll work for a hell of a lot less than Americans do. Then there is the problem of trying to immigrate to another country and get working papers.

I obviously meant programming language. Quit being dense.

I don’t know anyone your age who does, either – and I don’t believe you do. Sure, I don’t smoke, drink, or go out to bars, either. Haven’t bought a new computer in 14 years (building one in high school wasn’t an option – hell, I remember when we used to use vacuum tubes in electronic stuff!)

Well choose not to, I don’t care.

I do hope you’re socking money away for the day you’re replaced by someone in the third world willing to work for 10 cents an hour doing the exact same thing you do.

You can’t outsource what I do. You could hire someone, but our state licensing board prohibits anyone from just applying. You have to have years of experience with proof before applying for licensing. Without the license you can’t work in the state.

Here we go again – if I’m poor I MUST have done something wrong and deserve it. But keep up that Magic Wall Defense Shield ™. After all, you’re a good person, nothing bad will EVER happen to you!

Damn right, I say my prayers and eat my vitamins.

What unadulterated bullshit. Your generation is a flock of frightened sheep, cowed by debt, nihilistic, and afraid to act for your common interests having been successfully divided and conquered by the oligarchs running this country into the sewer. You’re also remarkably selfish

And you’re the only struggling to make ends meet while I’m literally rolling in cash. Quit being mad lady. You’re acting like the stereotypical angst ridden teen.

That would be great if I had an IT degree, right? Except that doesn’t explain all the unemployed IT people I know, does it?

Their skills are outdated, they’re involved in sales, etc. The IT market took a huge shift after 9/11. Ain’t what it used to be. But you know that, right?

Here’s an idea – maybe you got hired because you were willing to work for half of what more experienced people were, and were assumed to not know better?

Actually, yes. I did an apprenticeship for close to 4 years, starting my first year of college when I realized software engineering was not the way to go.

Then, with that experience I got certified and then licensed and then applied at this new job where I get great benefits, great pay, and my own fucking email. How cool?!?!

Not useless, but there’s something like 200 qualified candidates for every job opening in the field right now, so when I realized that I choose to go into something else – despite having to start again at entry level – rather than beat my head against the wall with one fruitless interview after another. They still have people doing that sort of work, just a hell of a lot fewer of them. And salaries are half what they used to be, even for those that still can find work.

There AREN’T that many PHP programmers, trust me, out of work. They’re highly sought after. Go learn PHP. It sounds like you’ve got plenty of time on your hands. I’ll be happy to mail you my college text books. Consider it my good deed of the week.

And, this may be news to you, but having only a year or two of warning isn’t really enough to launch a new career when you actually have family depending on you. Or maybe it fits in with your selfishness to simply abandon people when they become burdens? Can’t get a new, four year degree in just a year you know. Or rather, you obviously don’t know that.

I could easily transition into another trade if need be. I taught myself to weld on the side and help with a friends company. So, you see, in my free time, I actually taught myself a skill that can be used to get work elsewhere if my field should unexpectedly collapse (highly, highly unlikely). Again, what’s your excuse?

Yeah, honey – that’s why I’m going into construction. Can’t outsource that. But like I said, you’re not going to be making big bucks the first few years while you’re learning the trade and getting experience.

I’ve got the experience now. The certifications. The license. I’m making those big bucks, but I’m not in construction. Construction is hard work. I don’t like waking up at 3AM everyday either.

You’re working in software and IT? It will be outsourced a lot sooner than that.

No, I’m not. Learn to read.

No, I’d consider it in line with the same idiocy that sold a patent for a dollar. If your idea was worth more why didn’t you sell it for more? You got played for a sucker and someone else is profiting from your idea. And laughing at you behind your back.

It opened doors to where I want to be in 5 years. After selling it, I spent a lot of time talking to the companies technical director. We talk on almost a weekly basis. It’s one of the biggest companies in the U.S. in the field. When the fiance completes her post-doc, I will talk to her about relocating to the area and working for the company as the technical analyst I spoke about before (the job’s already been offered).

Selling it would require more lawyers, etc. I called their legal affairs department and told them I’d give them an idea that’d make them money and to draft some sort of agreement that would sell it to them for $1. They sent me a $10 check for some reason, haha. I signed it along with an NDA and that was that. I’m happy though. Like I said, my name is there, that’s what brings the most joy - I’m set for money.

That’s one of the things that makes me doubt your claim of saving 70% of your income and being all so successful – it doesn’t match up.

Well, recall that I spend roughly $1500 a month on living expenses that I split with my fiance. So, $750 for me, $750 for her. I take home just over $4200 a month after taxes. $750 is 17% of $4200 going by my calculations. So, that leaves 13% to pay for car insurance, which we do not share or split, and cell phone costs. Also allows for fudge spending.

The rest gets put away. Believe it or not.

Since you don’t even know what my skills ARE that’s a pretty bold statement.

Then go find a job with them.

You get a weekly migraine – oh, yes, I know they hurt, poor baby. But you’re inconvenienced what, once a week? As opposed to being disabled every single day. But hey, you’re young, you know everything, you’re bullet proof.

Again, get over yourself. Your husband has it rough, we get it. Quit undermining anything anyone else says or projects simply because you think he’s won the I HURT pageant.

Nope, I was in favor of it even when I worked for Blue Cross and was riding high on the hog. There’s even threads on this forum that show me advocating for it when I was much wealthier and had the best damn insurance next to Congress. It wasn’t being poor that made me think it was a good idea, I’ve been in favor of single-payer for, oh, 20-25 years now. You know – since before you were born.

Cool.

Oh, you’re just sore you lost the boo-boo contest. Really, in that case – if you develop an expensive illness and can no longer work you’re OK with the rest of us just laying you out on the sidewalk and watching you die? Or will you beg for help?

That wouldn’t happen. I’d go off myself. I’m not interested in living at half capacity or without full function. I’m thinking a car accident that looks accidental will stay pay out my policy.

Now WHERE did I ask YOU for money? Seriously? Haven’t ever asked for a handout here. You are just so terrified the Mean Poor People are going to take your stuff, aren’t you? I just find that so remarkable, that you’re so afraid of people like me.

Hardly afraid.

And you do care – otherwise you wouldn’t be bothering to post here.

I don’t have to care about your situation to post. There are a number of questions you are posing to me in each response that I answer.

Oh, good lord – you had a car accident and now you get migraines sometimes. You think that’s terrible? My god, you’re also a spoiled brat as well as selfish. You haven’t a clue what a real obstacle is.

Continue to whine and realize that a kid 1/3 your age makes more money than you and doesn’t have an ounce of worry that you do. Quit being angry.

WRONG. You get migraines? **You now have a pre-existing condition, congratulations. **Hope you never have to try to shop for individual health insurance, if you do find yourself in that situation you will be screwed.

Didn’t have a problem last time.

Seriously, you want to freelance? How are you going to get insurance if you do? You have NO IDEA how screwed you are in that regard. On an individual policy they can exclude everything to do with your migraines, and they’ll do everything they can to blame everything on the damn migraines. You’ll be paying in the five digits for a catastrophic policy with a sky-high deductible and list of exclusions as long as your arm.

I’ll just get on my fiance’s policy, duh.

Dude, if you don’t work for an employer willing to get you on a group policy there’s a damn good chance you just won’t be able to get health insurance. Even if your state has a high risk pool you’ll see high premiums. Can you pull in a few thousand a month? That’s what it will take. Every single month.

I paid $132.08 for decent insurance a month on my own with the “pre-existing condition”. I don’t know where you get thousands from.

[pbbth]

@AbloyProtec

I paid $132.08 for decent insurance a month on my own with the “pre-existing condition”. I don’t know where you get thousands from.

As a health insurance agent I can promise you that any policy you had that only charged $132.08 per month was not decent. If it didn’t have an incredibly high deductible it was either catastrophic coverage only or had a very low lifetime maximum and while it may have met your needs at the time most larger problems would have wiped you out in short order. If there were decent health insurance policies available for less than $150 per month our nation wouldn’t even be discussing the concept of single payer plans or health insurance reform.

[Dangerosa]

@AbloyProtec

I’ll just get on my fiance’s policy, duh.

And when she gets laid off, too? Or when you get laid off and she decides she doesn’t want to stick around and divorces you. I’ve seen both those cases happen.

Something else you are missing in this…age discrimination - as well as the learning fatigue that comes with age. Look around you…how many 50+ year old PHP programmers are there? I’m going to guess not too many. Do you think the entire previous generation of C++ developers had their heads up their asses and you are special - or do you think there might be more going on here than you yet know.

There are 50 year old PHP programmers (my husband is near that, and is an ecommerce architect, very familiar with PHP, although he doesn’t write code). And there are 50 year olds in IT (I’m near that, but I’m on the management/governance side of life). But I know a dozen talented people, with up to date skills (including php, including Ruby on Rails, including UML, including Clojure) who have been out of work for nearly three years now.

Broomstick’s story scares the crap out of me - not necessarily for my own future - I have enough set aside that I could retire if I ‘needed’ to - but for my friends, for my kids. I got lucky. And at the same time, I admire the hell out of her.

[bump]

@Dangerosa

Something else you are missing in this…age discrimination - as well as the learning fatigue that comes with age. Look around you…how many 50+ year old PHP programmers are there? I’m going to guess not too many. Do you think the entire previous generation of C++ developers had their heads up their asses and you are special - or do you think there might be more going on here than you yet know.

Well to be fair, anyone in IT or any kind of software development knows or should know that the actual coding part of software development is a young man’s game, and that it’s not really a lifetime career choice, unless you move into management, analysis or somehow luck into working on a legacy system.

Not that I agree, but the thinking goes that they can hire a guy right out of school who’s up on the latest languages, techniques and all that stuff, and pay him significantly less than the 50 year old guy who cut his teeth on COBOL, and has moved into PHP or Ruby on Rails. Experience in programming doesn’t count for much, unless the HR drones see the proper buzzwords and years of experience on them.

That’s one of those things that I think may be dividing the more successful from the less successful; a certain foresight to plan a career path and deduce what that career may be when they’re 30, 40, 50 and 60.

For example, some young hot chick may be a pharmaceutical sales rep in her 20s and early 30s, but if looks are important, she shouldn’t bank on that job in her 40s and 50s. Same thing goes for coders or people whose jobs rely on physical capacities that people typically have when they’re in their 20s. Failure to plan for that kind of thing seems to be a common source of later-career woes and unemployment.

[Broomstick]

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
IT is not my field. Holy shit you can’t read. I said my degree is in software engineering. I never got a job in it, but did finish out the degree.
[/quote]

So you paid for a degree you’ve never used? Wow, that was an amazingly useful use of your money. Guess you aren’t perfect all the time, then.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

This may come as a shock to you, but the Mexicans are a lot more likely to hire other Mexicans than to hire you – for one thing, they’ll work for a hell of a lot less than Americans do. Then there is the problem of trying to immigrate to another country and get working papers.

I obviously meant programming language. Quit being dense.
[/quote]

Maybe you weren’t as clear as you thought. You seem to be mistaken about a number of things.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

I do hope you’re socking money away for the day you’re replaced by someone in the third world willing to work for 10 cents an hour doing the exact same thing you do.

You can’t outsource what I do. You could hire someone, but our state licensing board prohibits anyone from just applying. You have to have years of experience with proof before applying for licensing. Without the license you can’t work in the state.
[/quote]

So… what’s stopping someone from the third world getting licensed here, in your state, then moving back home where the cost of living is so much lower while getting work in the US that pays so much more than what would be available locally?

Architectural firms are already doing things of that sort.

I have a friend who’s a civil engineer. About three years ago local municipalities stopped calling him to review and approve building plans. Turns out there are guys in India licensed as US civil engineers. The local cities scan the plans, e-mail them to India, and get the guys there to say yay or nay for a fraction of the cost of using US people.

Again – what makes you think you’re immune?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

Damn right, I say my prayers and eat my vitamins.
[/quote]

And take imitrex reguarly for migraines. Let’s see… useless college degree (why didn’t you change your major to something useful? Lucrative?)… bad car accident with permanent effects… seems you do get bad luck periodically after all. Don’t get cocky.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Here’s an idea – maybe you got hired because you were willing to work for half of what more experienced people were, and were assumed to not know better?

Actually, yes. I did an apprenticeship for close to 4 years, starting my first year of college when I realized software engineering was not the way to go.
[/quote]

And yet you criticize me for doing an apprenticeship now? Well, I don’t have mommy and daddy to supplement my allowance during the low-wage years of learning a new trade. AND I have to support another human being in addition to myself.

And really – you knew software engineering “wasn’t the way to go” your FIRST year of college, but you still got your degree in it? Dude, why didn’t you change majors? Or go to a trade school?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
It sounds like you’ve got plenty of time on your hands.
[/quote]

Right – the usual conclusion that if you’re poor you’re not doing anything. As it happens, I’m working for money as much as possible, looking for more work, AND learning new skills at the same time. Doesn’t actually leave much time for anything else.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

I could easily transition into another trade if need be. I taught myself to weld on the side and help with a friends company. So, you see, in my free time, I actually taught myself a skill that can be used to get work elsewhere if my field should unexpectedly collapse (highly, highly unlikely).
[/quote]

We have welders looking for work around here, there aren’t enough welding jobs to go around in my region. Like I said, don’t get cocky. You’re assuming things are the same everywhere, and they’re not. That demand for this or that is the same everywhere, and it’s not.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
I’ve got the experience now. The certifications. The license. I’m making those big bucks, but I’m not in construction. Construction is hard work. I don’t like waking up at 3AM everyday either.
[/quote]

I’ve never had to wake up at 3am for a construction job. Sure, it’s hard work, but I’m not afraid to work hard. Are you? Or are you lazy? You’re a young, healthy man, right? Why can’t you do the same work as a middle-aged woman?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

It opened doors to where I want to be in 5 years. After selling it, I spent a lot of time talking to the companies technical director. We talk on almost a weekly basis.
[/quote]

Well, sure – he knows you’ll work for nearly nothing. Why shouldn’t he stay in contact with a chump who would sell a patent for $1?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Since you don’t even know what my skills ARE that’s a pretty bold statement.

Then go find a job with them.
[/quote]

I’m posting this on my lunch break – why do you assume I’m UNemployed? I’m not, and haven’t been for some time. But like I said, apprentice wages aren’t very much, and there’s a lack of work around here that has nothing to do with how hard someone looks for work.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Really, in that case – if you develop an expensive illness and can no longer work you’re OK with the rest of us just laying you out on the sidewalk and watching you die? Or will you beg for help?

That wouldn’t happen. I’d go off myself. I’m not interested in living at half capacity or without full function. I’m thinking a car accident that looks accidental will stay pay out my policy.
[/quote]

You have no idea how hard it is to pull that off – someone in a car accident just after a diagnosis of something awful is assumed to be fraud by an insurance company until proven otherwise. How do I know this? I used to work for the insurance industry. You think you’re the first one to come up with that?

[Quote=AbloyProtec]
Continue to whine and realize that a kid 1/3 your age makes more money than you and doesn’t have an ounce of worry that you do. Quit being angry.
[/quote]

Quit being bad at math. If I was really three times your age I’d be comfortably retired – I do have an actual pension waiting for me, but can’t collect until 65. Meanwhile, I have to pay the rent and buy food.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

WRONG. You get migraines? You now have a pre-existing condition, congratulations. Hope you never have to try to shop for individual health insurance, if you do find yourself in that situation you will be screwed.

Didn’t have a problem last time.
[/quote]

Either you failed to disclose that problem, in which case if you tried to use that insurance you’d be accused of fraud, or the policy you bought was a joke.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Seriously, you want to freelance? How are you going to get insurance if you do? You have NO IDEA how screwed you are in that regard. On an individual policy they can exclude everything to do with your migraines, and they’ll do everything they can to blame everything on the damn migraines. You’ll be paying in the five digits for a catastrophic policy with a sky-high deductible and list of exclusions as long as your arm.

I’ll just get on my fiance’s policy, duh.
[/quote]

That’s assuming

1. She continues to be your fiancee
2. You get married (haven’t heard of employer insurance that covers non-related people, at least not heterosexual couples)
3. The insurance her employer offers covers dependents/family members (not all do)
4. That insurance doesn’t manage to impose exclusions on you.

[Quote=AbloyProtec]

@Broomstick

Dude, if you don’t work for an employer willing to get you on a group policy there’s a damn good chance you just won’t be able to get health insurance. Even if your state has a high risk pool you’ll see high premiums. Can you pull in a few thousand a month? That’s what it will take. Every single month.

I paid $132.08 for decent insurance a month on my own with the “pre-existing condition”. I don’t know where you get thousands from.
[/quote]

I used to work for the health insurance industry. Did you bother to read what I wrote?

If you paid $132.08 for a one month insurance policy I have to wonder what the hell was covered. But hey, don’t take my word for it, insurance agent pbbth has already weighed in on the subject in post #263.

[Dangerosa]

@bump

Well to be fair, anyone in IT or any kind of software development knows or should know that the actual coding part of software development is a young man’s game, and that it’s not really a lifetime career choice, unless you move into management, analysis or somehow luck into working on a legacy system.

Not that I agree, but the thinking goes that they can hire a guy right out of school who’s up on the latest languages, techniques and all that stuff, and pay him significantly less than the 50 year old guy who cut his teeth on COBOL, and has moved into PHP or Ruby on Rails. Experience in programming doesn’t count for much, unless the HR drones see the proper buzzwords and years of experience on them.

That’s one of those things that I think may be dividing the more successful from the less successful; a certain foresight to plan a career path and deduce what that career may be when they’re 30, 40, 50 and 60.

For example, some young hot chick may be a pharmaceutical sales rep in her 20s and early 30s, but if looks are important, she shouldn’t bank on that job in her 40s and 50s. Same thing goes for coders or people whose jobs rely on physical capacities that people typically have when they’re in their 20s. Failure to plan for that kind of thing seems to be a common source of later-career woes and unemployment.

Oh, definitely - notice I’m no longer the systems engineer I was and am now on the management side. But moving over to the other side isn’t a no-brainer assured career path. There tend to be fewer of us over on this side. And in many ways, our jobs are a lot less stable - in addition to my other attributes, I’m a PMP. You know who the first person out the door when the budgets get cut and you can’t spend anymore is? The PMP.

[SciFiSam]

@salinqmind

I understand that, I meant ‘sitting pretty’ compared to what a single adult with no kid, who works part time and lives in a friend’s spare room, would get. She went to the welfare office to see what, if any help she could get, and all she got was a pittance for food stamps once a month. That was it. She was put on a list for Section 8 housing, which would take 4-5 years. She was turned down for Medicaid by making $10 a month too much. If you are a young woman and have kids, those kids at least get some kind of medical, food stamps, free lunch, and something toward housing. Not a lot, but something. (not to mention,a lot of the young women with kids come from big families who have been in the system for years, know how to work it, and are most certainly helping out their daughters and grandbabies under the table.) A lone adult? - food stamps, maybe $20 a week. You’re given the phone numbers for homeless shelters if you need a place to stay, and if you get sick, they give you the address of the nearest teaching hospital where you can go to the emergency room and wait, 6 hours or more. Now I’m not saying my friend should have all her needs taken care of, but if she had young kids, at least their most basic needs would be met. I keep telling her to not argue with the friend she’s staying with, not to argue with her boyfriend - and she has no family to lean on! She’s Depending on the kindness of friends, and hoping for help from strangers, i.e., social services. Grim.

Re, the bolded bit: everything I can see there doesn’t actually cover the cost of looking after the child. The kids get medical, free lunches at school during term time, food stampsfor other meals, and something towards housing (because extra people need extra space). They might also get other things you don’t know about, like free transport to school perhaps, or access to charities that provide clothes. They don’t actually belay the cost of raising a child. Kids get through a LOT of shoes, for example, and kids’ shoes can’t be bought secondhand - for one thing, it’s not good for growing feet, and for another, the shoes are all too worn out before they get to the Goodwill shop.

Your childless friend would have even less money than now, if she had a kid. I know it’s easy to look at the extra money and think ‘if only…’ but you have to think of it as money for two people, one of whom can’t work and has extra needs.

@AbloyProtec

Go visit someone with ALS and tell me if you still feel the same way. I’d put a bullet in my head if I knew the insurance policies would allow for it.

I think it’s a lot easier to say that now it is when you’re actually confronted with it; IME, people hang on. Tomorrow could be better. Their niece’s birthday is coming up. They want to see the last episode of Dr Who. Life gets into a different routine where a day with only ten hours of agonising pain is a good day. Until the pain gets really terrible, life is generally better than death, for most people.

Plus, like you say, the insurance policies don’t allow for suicide. There are lots of conditions that can disable you for decades and you don’t know if you’re going to get one or not.

I know a lot of IT people who are currently out of work. Their skills aren’t outdated, but there are hundreds of other people out there who have the same skills. Most of the unemployed people I know now are definitely employable, and they try to get jobs, but there aren’t enough jobs for the number of applicants. They apply for minimum-wage jobs and don’t get those either, because the competition for those is even higher.

Broomstick… Just FYI (and I hope you take this in the spirit of someone who’s not been arging with you in this thread), not having kids IS a huge, huge deal for some people, far beyond just ‘wanting’ a kid. It’s something that’s on their mind all day every day. Wanting to have children is probably the most common impulse in all of humanity.

And adoption is often not an option. These days it usually doesn’t mean adopting a baby, a toddler or even a young kid, it means adopting a disabled child, a sibling group, or a teenager, and many people get rejected as adoptees for any child at all. It can also be extremely expensive. For many people, adoption is not a good alternative to IVF in the same way that growing your own food isn’t an option for many inner city residents.

[gonzomax]

Apparently people are poor because they don’t have enough platitudes in their lives. Like “a penny saved is a penny earned’ or Nether a borrower nor a lender be”. Somehow they are unable to understand when things go to hell ,you have to cut back. They must be treated like idiots and taught simple truths. Then they too will prosper.

[bump]

@SciFiSam

I know a lot of IT people who are currently out of work. Their skills aren’t outdated, but there are hundreds of other people out there who have the same skills. Most of the unemployed people I know now are definitely employable, and they try to get jobs, but there aren’t enough jobs for the number of applicants. They apply for minimum-wage jobs and don’t get those either, because the competition for those is even higher.

Out of curiosity, where are you located? That has to be a matter of location; IT jobs don’t seem to be quite so scarce around here; it’s not 1999 anymore, but nor is it 2001-2002 either. At least around here, the post 9/11 and internet crash weeded out all the poseurs and incompetents around here pretty effectively.

[Broomstick]

Sorry, didn’t catch this during the lunch run-through. This, in regards to your “patent” –

@AbloyProtec

I called their legal affairs department and told them I’d give them an idea that’d make them money and to draft some sort of agreement that would sell it to them for $1. They sent me a $10 check for some reason, haha. I signed it along with an NDA and that was that. I’m happy though. Like I said, my name is there, that’s what brings the most joy - I’m set for money.

Means that you did not, in fact, own a patent, and you did not sell a patent. You sold an IDEA. While there is nothing wrong with selling an idea, it’s not the same thing. Clearly, the company lawyers, etc. did all the documentation and filing work. You did NOT “sell a patent”. I’d like to think you’re just too young to know the difference, but I don’t think so. I also wonder in what other ways you have misrepresented yourself.

When I say my spouse had three patents I mean *patents - with all the diagrams, verbiage, official forms, lawyer expenses, and so forth. Yep, it’s costs money. They also made us some money, back in the day, and more than paid for themselves.

Slight difference.

Oh, if their legal department sent you a check for ten times what you asked - yeah, you undervalued yourself big time. You could have made a LOT more money off that, and you should have. People respect you more when you know what your own assets are worth.

[Dangerosa]

@bump

Out of curiosity, where are you located? That has to be a matter of location; IT jobs don’t seem to be quite so scarce around here; it’s not 1999 anymore, but nor is it 2001-2002 either. At least around here, the post 9/11 and internet crash weeded out all the poseurs and incompetents around here pretty effectively.

I’m in the Twin Cities. Seems to be picking up a lot in the last three months - fingers crossed that it doesn’t all crash down again as its threatening to.

But a lot of my co workers are/were in California - where there is a fairly high cost of living and a lot of YOUNG companies. Being 50 and owning a house with a high mortgage on it in the Valley and getting laid off is not pretty.

[Broomstick]

@SciFiSam

Broomstick… Just FYI (and I hope you take this in the spirit of someone who’s not been arging with you in this thread), not having kids IS a huge, huge deal for some people, far beyond just ‘wanting’ a kid. It’s something that’s on their mind all day every day. Wanting to have children is probably the most common impulse in all of humanity.

And adoption is often not an option. These days it usually doesn’t mean adopting a baby, a toddler or even a young kid, it means adopting a disabled child, a sibling group, or a teenager, and many people get rejected as adoptees for any child at all. It can also be extremely expensive. For many people, adoption is not a good alternative to IVF in the same way that growing your own food isn’t an option for many inner city residents.

Yes, I am aware of all that.

You know what? Being able to walk is really super important to people, too. But almost all people who lose that ability are able to adjust to the reality of it. In past childless people weren’t throwing themselves off bridges en masse due to infertility, I don’t think the state is any worse these days.

If there’s a quick fix for an infertility problem by all means, go for it. However, I think there are many cases these days where a couple go cycle after cycle with little actual possibility of conceiving and it bleeds them dry financially. It’s exploiting the very human urge to have children, and it’s a bad thing. The whole industry needs to be better regulated, and for some people they need someone to sit down and tell them their desires aren’t realistic. Not everyone, just some.

I’m also all for reform of adoption rules.

[gonzomax]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/nearly-1-in-4-young-children-now-live-in-poverty/
One in 4 kids is poor in America now. They generally get psychological problems and physical problems as a result. Got any words of advice for these kids? Perhaps they shouldn’t eat so much peanut butter and jelly. I guess they should save their allowances for a rainy day.

[emacknight]

@gonzomax

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/nearly-1-in-4-young-children-now-live-in-poverty/
One in 4 kids is poor in America now. They generally get psychological problems and physical problems as a result. Got any words of advice for these kids? Perhaps they shouldn’t eat so much peanut butter and jelly. I guess they should save their allowances for a rainy day.

So what you’re saying is that subjecting children to poverty is a bad thing? Sound like you’re telling poor people they aren’t fit to raise their own children, is that what you’re trying to say?

Maybe you think the government should remove these children from their homes and raise them in government facilities? Is that what you want?

Or would you rather a program that takes poor kids and forces rich families to raise them?

Not cool man, not cool.

[Broomstick]

Or perhaps we could live in a society where the better off people don’t look down at poor people as inherently inferior losers…

… but I don’t think I should hold my breath waiting for it.

[Dave_Hartwick]

Do you believe classism is the root cause of the problems the children of the poor suffer?

[emacknight]

@Broomstick

Or perhaps we could live in a society where the better off people don’t look down at poor people as inherently inferior losers…

… but I don’t think I should hold my breath waiting for it.

Well, it seems gonzomax thinks the poor are *inferior *at raising children. He seems to think the government should remove them from their homes!

[emacknight]

@Broomstick

I’m also all for reform of adoption rules.

What, and make it easier for sex offenders to adopt children? Is that what you want?

Forgive me if I think the government should protect our children for rapist monsters.

[Broomstick]

Wow, it’s a Grand Canyon sized chasm from “reform adoption rules” to “let molesters adopt children”. Did you wear a parachute in case you couldn’t make that leap?

There are antiquated rules regarding age of adopting parents, single parent adoptions, same sex adoptions, and disabled people adopting that could definitely stand a review, allowing people excluded from adopting in the past for stupid reasons to be parents, and more children to find permanent homes.

That’s nowhere near letting “sex offenders” adopt.