I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I am arguing that different people have different experiences with hunger and cravings based on biological makeup, and it is not reasonable for any of us to expect that it is as easy or as difficult for others to control appetite as it is for us. Any statement in the form “this is not my personal experience, so it must be wrong” will always be less convincing to me than careful scientific research across populations. The latter shows that we DO experience hunger and cravings differently based on genetic, epigenetic and even bacteriological makeup. As one tiny example, did you know that certain crafty gut microbes can actually manipulate our gene expression to cause us to crave certain kinds of sugar that they need to survive.
Another quick analogy… I poop with a certain frequency and have observed that this frequency varies depending on how much and what I eat. Certain foods stop me up. Other foods clear me out. Etc. While there are certain generalizable trends here, I would never presume to tell another person that they can follow my personal diet to experience the same bowel patterns. Different bodies react differently. Some folks are chronically constipated no matter what. Others have IBS. It’s a personal medical concern and not my business to tell them how bran flakes worked for me and would solve all of their problems if only they’d be like me.
It’s still incorrect to say that exercise doesn’t work. If you want to state that doing a minimal amount of exercise and then eating more than you burned doesn’t cause weight loss, I totally agree. But it’s like arguing that studying doesn’t make you smarter or that practice doesn’t make you better. There may be other factors that lead to failure, but that doesn’t mean that excercise was the cause of failure or that it’s not beneficial.
I wouldn’t say that I’m incensed over this, but I will vigororsly defend using excercise and diet to lose weight. If you want to state that changing those things is hard, or that it’s harder for some than others, I won’t disagree. But it’s wrong to say they don’t work.
One of the reasons I’m so vocal about this is because I’m sure there are overweight people who read threads like this who do want to change their weight. If people are posting things like, “exercise doesn’t work”, “changing diet doesn’t work”, and “your blahipor levels make you big”, what motivation does the overweight person have? They’re going to think it’s hopeless.
And if someone has other activities that take the place of exercise, that’s fine. It’s honest to say “I don’t want to exercise because I enjoy spending my time knitting.” But it’s incorrect to say “I don’t excercise because it doesn’t work for weight loss.”
I think we’re all kinda conflating two different concepts–
“Exercise doesn’t work to help with weight loss” which is true.
“Exercise is not nearly as effective as spending the same effort on restricting calories for the sole purpose of losing weight” which is true as well, to a large extent–while running for a half-hour will burn 350 calories or so, you can accomplish the same caloric reduction by saying “Maybe I will switch two of my glasses of pepsi today for diet”.
This is flatly ridiculous for the large majority of the overweight population, unless you’re seriously trying to argue that well over 60% of the population of the US is missing something so severely that they’re willing to damage their health to make it go away.
Yeah. Making the mental leap to actually take charge of my body and start eating right and becoming a healthy person is one of the toughest things I’ve ever done. Daily exercising and meal planning and all of that stuff is small potatoes (no pun intended) compared to making that initial mental change. And when you’re trying to draw up the inner strength and motivation to start changing the way you eat and live, it’s just that much harder when you see people saying things like, “Exercise is only for people who want to run marathons,” or “Losing weight and keeping it off is as hard as running 200 miles,” or, “Exercise doesn’t help you lose weight,” or, “If you want to lose weight you have to deprive yourself every day for the rest of your life.” Untrue, unhelpful, and destructive to people that are trying to make positive changes in their lives.
That said, knowing how hard it is to make that change, I would never use terms like “lazy” or “slob” to describe people who are overweight. That’s as unhelpful in its way as the stuff I just mentioned is.
Probably the simplest thing I can do here is to be dubious that sufficient flexibility can be achieved with sufficient speed not to throw the dvd in the trash in disgust. Because in some things, I am somewhat of a perfectionist - specifically, if I try something, I need to succeed at it, or at least do sufficiently good enough at it quickly enough that I don’t decide that I’m being a moron wasting my time on something I can’t do. Some people are fine spending six months working themselves up to a point where they can show themselves in public - and if they’re fine with it, more power to them. Myself, I’m not fine with it. Call it a personal problem if you like, but I don’t see it that way. Life’s to short to waste like that.
So. There are presumably various things, like flexibility and abs and wind and marathoner muscles, that it’s (for most people) at least physically possible to achieve given six or twelve or twenty months of struggle. In cases like this, the end result is not an incentive to me, and does not seem achievable. Does that mean they aren’t? I guess not. But can’t internalize such beliefs. It just doesn’t happen.
So, how am I managing to use portion control to lose weight, you might ask? Simple - because it’s easy, and because there are immidiate results. It’s not because I believe it will work in the long run; I seriously do not believe that I will ever reach 200 pounds. While simultaneously arguing that portion control works! The cognitive dissonance is palpable, but I can’t change my beliefs. And regardless, I still have very little motivation to do it. Fortunately it’s still easy to do…
Sounds like a recipe for dehydration to me.
Meh, I’m dubious about this too. My brain isn’t connected to my ligaments, so why should contorting myself effect it in some magical way? If I’m not calm it’s for reasons that will still be there regardless. I guess I could get distracted, or just completely physically wipe myself out into a state of mindless misery I guess, but I just can’t see myself getting all zen over this stuff.
‘But it works!’ you insist. ‘I’ve experienced it myself!’ Well, I’m not going to say it is all in your head… but it is all in your head.
You were right the first time - it’s an aversion. I am averse to appearing in public looking like either a fat guy in shorts, or like an incompetent yogaist. Regardless of who sees me. Or what they’re doing. Or wether they’re also fat short-wearing incompetent yogaists. That doesn’t matter. Not in the slightest.
The thing you’re not getting is that this aversion is from my perspective. It’s not the viewer’s opinion that matters; it’s my opinion about myself. Heck, I don’t care if they’re all ignoring me completely; I still know what I look like. And I will never be just another guy doing yoga to myself.
People wo don’t care how they present themselves probably will never understand.
I don’t believe in these ‘evoked insights’ of yours - the only insight I’m going to get by causing myself extreme physical pain and sweating buckets is “I’d be a heck of a lot happier doing something else”. Especially since that would be an insight I would act on in short order.
Unless you want to argue that if I tried it, I wouldn’t experience this? Insights would come flowing in in the first few days, at the latest?
It matters to ME how good I am at it, and my progress-meter doesn’t wait six months before kicking in. I’ll notice how bad I’m doing first thing. (Though curiously enough, I very likely wouldn’t notice incemental improvements. I’ve lost eighty pounds, but haven’t noticed the slightest change in my appearence. I seriously look the same to me. If not for the evidence of my pants being looser, my sleeves being longer, and that scale (which is a liar anyway), I wouldn’t believe I’d lost an ounce.)
As for the “transgressions”, I think you’re misunderstanding them completely. You don’t transgress for the fun of transgressing. You transgress because the transgression itself is something that you want to do. You eat chips because you want to eat chips. And because all that incompetent and ineffective yoga you were doing made you really hungry. Two bags of chips and a box of ding-dongs hungry.
And even if you wanted to transgress for the sake of it, it’s impossible to transgress by doing what you’re supposed to be doing. If you’re only supposed to yoga three times a week, it’s impossible to transgress by not going four.
It’s all about portion control. People who are more active can eat a little more quite safely. (People who engage in extreme physical activity for six hours straight every day can safely eat a horse - but not a horse made of twinkies.) The issue for your average overweight person is that they’re a habital eater. And like a alcoholic that’s on the wagon, it’s better to avoid the temptation than to flirt with the line. Persons who don’t have this problem may imbible moderate quantities without worry.
And I have to wonder if you really didn’t eat less - or eat less of the “bad” stuff.
I don’t want to, for a number of excellent reasons, not the least of which being that I have no reason to. So okay!
Nonsense - I have myriad excellent reasons not to exercise - it hurts, it takes time, it would tire me out. These are all excellent reasons not to do things, and are the exact same reasons you don’t do things like beat your hand with a hammer or sit staring mindlessly into space for hours.
The one difference between us in this regard is, that I have no excuse to exercise. You do, and this excuse is sufficiently compelling to override the various reasons not to engage in the activity. If you didn’t have such an excuse, you wouldn’t exercise either - for excellent reasons.
Not to seem like I’m toggling sides here, but you are surely overstating this. If Leptin were truly as good as breathing instincts at overcoming volition, then nobody would ever lose weight on a diet. As this is demonstrably false, your thesis must be incorrect.
Now, this is not to say that there aren’t some lucky jerks who have more volition-removing Leptin sensitivity and that these bastards will maintain their weight effortlessly, damn them all to hell. But that doesn’t change the fact that we tubby folk didn’t have to get tubby, and we don’t require medical treatments to get un-tubby. It just means it’s somewhat more difficult, is all.
Meh, people who exercise lose weight because during the time they’re exercising, they’re not eating.
(Dieting works fine though. That’s diet as in portion control and twinkie-management, not stupid fad diets abandoned after the first ten pounds.)
Speaking as a fat person, you’re wrong. Oh, there might be a few who find comfort in foods (heck, women fat or thin diving for chocolate ice cream after a bad date is an old stereotype) but this is not the average way to get fat. Getting fat is typically a very slow process of just casually living a sedentary lifestyle coupled with a habit of casually eating the food that’s at hand. Watching TV, contrary to the delusion of the the people who compulsively exercise, won’t make you fat, but casually eating out of a bag of potato chips while you’re doing it sure will!
You might also find yourself taking larger and larger portions, and eating more and more, out of the desire to satisfy. After all, suppose you regularly ate three grapes for a snack. Sometimes, though, you might decide to give yourself a treat, and take another. Or if they’re handy, you might slip in another before the other ones really hit your stomach and made you feel full. Keep this up enough, and sooner or later you’ll always be taking four, because that’s what your used to. And then as a treat you might take a fifth…
Of course with grapes this is no big deal, but with cookies and cake peice sizes it really can add up. The thing to note, though, is that it’s all quite casual, and requires no deliberate effort at all. No feeding of the need, or whatever. And sooner or later you’re eating the whole box of cookies, the whole cake, or the entire freakin’ grapevine.
In cases like this, which I strongly suspect vastly outnumber the cases of “comfort food” types, filling in other aspects of your life won’t help - you’ll just become a jolly fat person. To actually shed the pounds, you have to cut back on the calories. Or have your leptin surgically removed, I dunno.
I still don’t think I know what hunger feels like. I know what “not stuffed” feels like, but there’s a heck of a difference between that and hungry - as in, you’re supposed to feel “not stuffed”.
Maybe one of these days I’ll feel actual hunger. Or maybe I have, but just discounted it…regardless of how you do it, avoiding that binge overeating is the main thing, however you do it.
I don’t know for hunger, but sticking to a diet is key. Presumably it doesn’t even have to be that extreme a diet (though I like to push the limits a little myself because I’m impatient), as long as you set a limit lower than your caloric needs and stick to it, you’re golden.
Because that still only requires a degree of willpower and self-control that I expect from everyone. I don’t care if you’re an alcoholic, I still expect you to not drink and drive. I don’t care if you’re poor, I still expect you to not mug people. And I don’t care if your leptin-feedback system is screwed up, I still expect you to possess the ability to think “hey, maybe being 200 pounds overweight is a bad thing”.
Also, I have even less respect for someone who tries to justify their own failure by whining about other people having it easy.
So, to you, drinking and driving = mugging = not minding being 200lbs overweight, morally speaking? Or that it’s equally reasonable to require the latter activity to be refrained from?
On a similar note, people who wear white after labor day, and mass murderers. It’s equally important for the first category to restraing their impulses as the latter - not just for their own good, but for the good of society.
Can we call them lucky bastards, though?
(Though really I have no reason to think that I have any leptin problems at all. It’s not like I need to invoke esoteric explanations to explain my weight; ten years of eating too much pretty much covers it.)
Er, you just now implied you think it’s immoral (which raises questions about someone’s sapience).
But regardless, you were specifically criticizing their “willpower and self-control” - and then criticizing them, specifically, for not thinking that their weight is a problem. Which of course doesn’t have anything to do with willpower and self-control at all; those doesn’t kick in until you try to lose weight, and then fail.
But then, this has nothing to do will willpower and self control at all, does it? You just hate fatties. Hate them like you do muggers and drunk drivers! (It’s telling that you don’t equate them to mere drunks, which might actually be equivalent. But then, you like mere drunks.)
One has to wonder if Santa Claus did something bad to you when you were a child.
But it’s not like being fat is a death sentence or predictor of ill health of any sort. BMI-wise, being overweight (BMI 25-29) has very few risks factors. Half of all Americans are overweight and our life expectancy is not falling yet. Being obese (BMI 30-34) raises your risk a bit. When you are morbidly obese (BMI 35-40) it gets quite high, and the super obese (BMI 40+) are highest of all (I am talking conventional health risk factors, not mortality rates or actual rates of disease).
But only 3% of the US is morbidly obese or bigger, despite what the news shows you.
Did you read the study that indicated that a BMI in the overweight range was most protective against death from heart disease, and that the pretty thin people with BMIs below 18.5 had the highest risk of death, more than all 3 classes of obesity?
(BTW, I went walking with Dad and the dog again today – and I managed not to step in any horse poop!)
As for exercise “not being an effective method”, last summer, I started walking to work from downtown, instead of taking the second bus. (One day I missed the bus, and just figured I’d walk). So, as long as the weather permitted, I’d walk along from downtown, across the Clemente Bridge, along the North Shore, all the way to the Science Center. While I had been eating better, it wasn’t until I started exercising that I REALLY started noticing results. I went down about two sizes. I had this pair of capris that I hadn’t been able to fit into for awhile – but after a month or so of walking – THEY FIT!!! The only downside is when it started to get too cold to walk.
Now that I’m laid off, like I said, I’m trying to go out to the park with Dad twice a week or so.
So don’t sit there and tell me “exercise is a lousy method for losing weight.” Because it’s not.
Lousy edit time!!! meara, I just wanted to let you know – I don’t think being overweight is a moral failing. I also hate seeing the way some people treat those who are overweight. And yes, it is hella hard to keep fit. I don’t think anyone is denying that. (Well, anyone with common sense!)
HOWEVER, I do find those with attitudes like berbert2’s frustrating. In fact, I’m finding him downright insulting.
It’s not hard for me to keep fit at all, personally.
The level of effort and suffering, physical and mental, required to be a certain weight/shape or have certain athletic capabilities is different for everyone, depending on many more factors than how many minutes of exercise you do and how many calories you take in.
Right – I have a fast metabolism, luckily. But for some, it IS harder, and I think sometimes people tend to say, “well, you’re just being lazy”, when they say it’s difficult for them. Even though they ARE working at it. That’s all.
It’s not hard to keep fit, but it is harder to get fit, imo.
I’m only 23, and I’ve never been massively overweight, but I weighed 85kg during College. Through joining the TA (UK Reserves) in University, and getting a healthy attitude to exercise (getting fit, enjoying being exerted, getting the right shoes and understanding why people enjoy running), I now weigh a 69kg and I’m stronger than I’ve ever been.
I also eat a lot more than I ever used to, and don’t often think about what I’m eating except to ensure it’s not always junk (although I’m fine with going to a pub lunch fairly often). The only thing that accounts for being slimmer and lighter is the exercise, since I’m certainly not restricting my calories (quite the opposite; I’m running 10k this afternoon and hence had a massive takeaway last night).
Exercise must help with weight loss. It’s bloody thermodynamics, people.
I think someone who goes from running zero to 30 minutes a day will experience a transformation all right. Especially if they stick with it for say, months. Sure, not to the degree from training for Everest or something extreme, but it would be about all anyone needs.
I’m just looking at this from the public health perspective. The person who starts running 30min a day with no goals or excitement about it is less likely to stick with it. They’re also less likely to improve and develop an enjoyable hobby vs. the person who joins a running club and starts dabbling in group runs, speed workouts, trail runs, impromptu 5Ks, etc.
