(Mods: I’ll understand if this needs to go in GQ or GD.)
I’m an atheist, and don’t believe in the sort of immortal personal consciousness that Western monotheists seem to be describing in their traditions when they speak of a “soul”. I believe the soul/mind is a phenomenon that arises from and is absolutely dependent on (ie, has a “supervenient” relationship to) the brain.
But I’m genuinely curious (and will try conscientiously not to get drawn into a nasty religious debate here): How do theists and other “soul-believers” (for lack of a better term) explain the apparently absolute lack of personal consciousness during human sleep, coma, or anesthesia? I honestly don’t know how religious types answer this.
Putting the question another way:
If the soul is a form of personal consciousness that can survive the death of the body, does it not also stand to reason that that personal consciousness would “survive” (persist) during periods of sleep or coma? If not, why not? Does the soul–for some weird unknown reason–need to “sleep” every time that our physical bodies and brains do? How come? If the personal soul is immortal, why do we very often lose all sense of ourselves (the very definition of personal consciousness) when we’re asleep or knocked out?
Or is the soul some elusive part of ourselves that’s not really self-aware of “conscious” in the way our human minds are? And if that’s the case, how would say, a Christian, square that with the Biblical idea of a persistence of awareness (and presumably, personality) after death, either in heaven, hell or for Catholics, purgatory?
I’m not talking about dream sleep here, btw; I’m talking about periods of full unconsciousness, unawareness of the self. How can anyone who has a soul ever be fully unaware of himself or herself?
Well, I’m no ardent supporter of the perpetual soul theory, but for the sake of debate I’ll try to conjure up some possible explanations:
One is not unaware during sleep etc.; merely experiencing things differently.
Wacky theory: one experiences it all just fine, but can’t remember it afterwards.
The soul does, indeed, like to take a nap from time to time.
Given that the concept is mystical in nature, no rational explanation is going to work. Honestly, the answer is “It’s magic” (replace magic with “holy” or “divine” as you will - they’re all just words to say “it’s not something we can possibly understand”).
Attempting to logically analyse the “divine” is pointless, because the divine supercedes both logic and our understanding. Assuming the divine exists, of course; but to address the question, one has to start from a presumption that it does. If one starts form any other presumption then, of course, the answer is “there is no soul; it’s all fairy tales”.
for me, a Catholic, the soul has nothing to do with being self-aware. Nothing at all. It didn’t even occur to me. It’s like asking if someone who can’t read has a soul.
I’ve managed on numerous occasions to retain a “spark” of consciousness while asleep-some truly gifted adepts can retain full consciousness during sleep. FWIW.
Exactly. The OP is like arguing that people with really low IQs and those in comas are soulless because they lack self-awareness. There might be religions that say they lack souls, but they’re not mainstream ones. In fact, a lot of religious people argue against keeping people who have no hope of recovery on life support because it keeps their souls from being able to move on.
I’m doing no such thing. I’m asking a simple question.
I was raised (American protestant Christian) to believe that a person’s individuality, or self-awareness–his or her personal, unique consciousness–persists in either heaven or hell after the death of the body. The implication from this idea is clear: The much-discussed “soul” in Christianity is in fact synonymous with some sort of personal consciousness.
Now, I realize that this might not be what all theistic religions teach. St. Germain has said as much, above. But here’s my follow-up question, then: In St. Germain’s Catholic tradition, heaven or hell are still real, right? So what part of you “goes” to heaven or hell (or purgatory)? Do you experience those places as “yourself”? Or some vague, non-conscious, disembodied soul? In other words, how can it be said that a human being “goes” to heaven or hell, if neither his/her body NOR his/her consciousness/mind/soul go there??
I’d really like a Christian or Muslim to answer this. What part of you “goes” to heaven or hell, and how exactly is it different from your personal consciousness? If it’s not different, then what happens to that “immortal” conscious part of yourself when you sleep or are unconscious during life here on earth?
I think, though I’m not sure, that the OP’s question assumes that the soul exists in and is subject to Time, as the body is. And that this is not necessarily a well-founded assumption.
I don’t believe in “immortal consciousness in the soul” in the way the OP is conceptualizing it. Yes, I do believe that souls exist, but their existence isn’t eternally conscious in the same way that the human mind is conscious during waking hours. I view it as something separate from the processes of my brain–which will change based on age, brain damage, drugs, hormones, mood, sleep, etc.–and so I don’t have anything to reconcile.
There is the theory that the “soul” consists of the core “spirit” (the Divine spark) and the “psyche” (the soul proper, the personality that develops from the spark being in an incarnate state). There is the enduring immortal core & the changeable hull. The latter can lapse into unconsciousness.
Btw, there have always been a persistent minority of Christians who hold to “soul sleep”, that we are totally dormant from death to the Resurrection.
If I think about it, I suppose I can reconcile it in the same way I can reconcile the Internet, and my personal collection of bookmarks thereon, as still being there even if my computer is shut down for the night. But ultimately, clever words and analogies are meaningless in the face of the unknowable.
I guess I don’t understand why the OP thinks this is an issue. One’s mind doesn’t disappear while one is asleep (it’s right there when you wake up), so why would one’s soul?
I think he’s seeing it as the mind’s consciousness disappears during some sleep, and interpreting that to mean the soul’s consciousness does likewise. He seems to believe mind = soul, and that others who discuss the soul believe likewise – which is where he’s mistaken.
[QUOTE= Cyningablod]
I was raised (American protestant Christian) to believe that a person’s individuality, or self-awareness–his or her personal, unique consciousness–persists in either heaven or hell after the death of the body. The implication from this idea is clear: The much-discussed “soul” in Christianity is in fact synonymous with some sort of personal consciousness.
[/QUOTE]
As a life long atheist, that implication isn’t at all clear to me and I’ve never known Christians or any other religious people to understand it that way.
