How do Utah citizens not die of embarassment from Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson?

The BBQ Pit
1

Here’s Orrin Hatch’s latest great big lie in reaction to Obama’s press conference yesterday, from here:

In case you don’t see the lie, from here:

Obviously the tax increases Obama is proposing would extend beyond his list of fat cats, but to portray it as ‘increase taxes for everything’ is exactly the kind of stinker I’ve come to expect from Hatch. Taxes have gone down under Obama. I find it impossible to believe a person in his position is unaware of the $1 trillion in cuts the Democrats are offering. Gawd, what a liar!

But how do the people of Utah continue to countenance this guy? It is one lie after another, after another, after another. After a while it starts to reflect poorly on the citizens of Utah- this is their representative after all. How can they stand it?

I have one theory- the Mormon Culture of Lies. You’d have to look pretty hard to find a religion which makes more blatantly false claims than can be found in the Book of Mormon. If you don’t think so already, check out this wiki link about Mormon archaeology.

The fundamental conclusion is that the factual claims are a bunch of lies (prove me wrong, produce photos of the Golden Plates. No? Didn’t think so) I’m pretty sure the only people who truly believe it are 10-year-old Mormons and maybe some crazy people. That’s why they resort to so much coercion to keep people in their ranks.

I used to think the stories were just rumors until I became acquainted with a guy who used to be fairly high up in the Mormon church. He followed everything, got married and had a slew of kids, the whole nine. Later in life he questioned some of the teachings. He was told, “You can’t question it.” “But why not? Some of this doesn’t add up.” “Because you can’t.” Long story short, for asking questions he got kicked out of the church. He didn’t quit- he got tossed out. His wife left him (they even got ‘un-bound’!), his family forgot him, and so on. Overnight he became an outcast.

These are the kinds of stories I’d heard but always dismissed as rumors. But no, they keep people in line with the coercive threat of taking everything they can away from anyone who so much as questions the false religion. They follow through and make examples of ‘wrongdoers’.

I used to think Evangelicals were the only group which behaved like this (if you’ve never done time in an Evangelical-majority community, you might not know what I mean). I find it sick that this is their take on ‘religious freedom’- yah, you’re free to choose, but say goodbye if you choose intellectual honesty!

Which brings us to the Mormon culture of lies. People who can’t stand the thought of being forever separated from their families and friends continue to go along with the falsehoods. Living a lie is in Utah DNA.

I hate to point this out about Mormons- they personally have always struck me as just nice folks who aren’t a religious nuisance at all, even the ones that knock on your door. But between Orrin Hatch’s relentless, shameless lying and the rumors I’ve recently seen confirmed, now I have to wonder if they are just being ingratiating when they are in the minority, biding their time until they can coerce the rest of us the way they coerce their own.

In effect, the Mormon church to some degree is a hostage situation (sure is a nice family you got there, it’d be a shame if you were suddenly not a part of it). Many members are coerced to accept lies as a lifestyle, and the lying is reflected plainly by their representative, the asshole liar Orrin Hatch. They are probably coerced to vote for guys like him, and face consequences for noticing his lies just like they face consequences for noticing the lies of other local authorities. He and his GOP buddies now seek to hold the US economy hostage to protect (a tiny portion of) the fortunes of billionaires at the expense of seniors, students, the poor and unemployed, pretty much all vulnerable people. They all lie and lie and lie in their attempts to achieve this, but Hatch seems the worst of the bunch.

You should be ashamed, Utah. Screw you for inflicting the pathologically lying Orrin Hatch on the rest of us, he is an embarrassment. And religious coercion should end, Mormon or otherwise. You suck.

yes, I’m sure there are Utah-citizen exceptions to this pitting.

2

It’s not wrong if you’re lying for God. :rolleyes:

3

The tea baggers are probably going to toss him out this next election for not being nuts enough. As for the Orrinator, I’ve always thought he was the most sanctimonious politician I’ve ever seen, but he is quite vociferous in his misrepresenting what his opponents have said.

4

"Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson"

Of all time? pfft, I hardly think Orrin ranks even near the top 100…

5

I hate it when he starts some rant against a political opponent—and then shifts into an anti-religious screed about a quarter of the way through.

6

I was out of room. I didn’t mean all-time, just now.

7

Now that is a fine idea for a thread. “The 100 lyingest politicians.”

8

President Obama is crazy to think that the business jet tax policy will make much difference, especially right now.

I work for a division of a company that manufactures aircraft - I can tell you that sales are not great right now because of the economy. There is also a a massive amount of used planes in good repair on the market - most companies that need a plane would buy one of these, and not need to claim depreciation.

I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage.

It makes little sense to me.

9

Orrin Hatch is someone I agree with very rarely. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you could come up with pages and pages of stuff that he said that I’d consider dishonest.

However, Hatch is a baby liar when it comes to measuring the “lyingest congressperson.” Most of the rest of the Republican party is far worse than he is.

And, as for the “Mormon culture of lies,” there have been some very decent liberal Democrats who were Mormons. Is everyone forgetting the Udall family?

10

I’m exploring for a connection between religious culture and coercive tactics employed these days by the pubbies.

Politically, the pubbies expect everyone to ‘believe’ in their crazy faith about taxing billionaires (it is Bad Bad Bad, you can never do it, just like you can not have sex before marriage or you’re off the BYU basketball team!). Don’t want to go along with it? ‘That’s a nice government you got there, sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it.’ See Minnesota government shuts down.

Likewise, don’t believe this unsupportable Mormon alternative history and all the mad conclusions that follow? Yer out.

The imposition of lies seems the same in both cases. The coercion is social in the religious case, mostly economic in the political case. What they have in common is a steaming load of crap at the top, and a mass of sufferers at the bottom.
Hatch jumps out at me as particularly dishonest- we’ll see what others think.

11

So just to be clear – it’s your thesis that Orrin Hatch is remarkable for his lying, right? To rebut this, it would be appropriate to offer examples of equally egregious – or more egregios – lying by other congresspeople? And/or to show that statements you characterized as lies are not actually lies. Yes?

12

I’m not particularly dogmatic. Clear reasoning from point A to point B can persuade me. I just want to avoid arguments of the form ‘it depends what the meaning of is is’ if ya know what I mean.

I gotta run, I’ll be back tonight.

13

OK.

So just to test the waters, here is Politifact on a chart used by Nancy Pelosi to claim:

Politifact goes on to dryly point out:

After analyzing the numbers, however:

Woudl this be an example of a large unambiguous lie?

14

Come on, you’re an intelligent guy, you know how silly this statement is. Virtually every business in the nation outside of the maker of the Snuggie or the Jersey Shore production company can proclaim the virtue of their line of business (the free market only supporting businesses which provide economic value for someone else and so forth), but we need to finance the operation of our government from taxes. It’s best if we make those taxes fair, even, and simple to pay for all industries rather than trying to make the economy even “more virtuous” than its natural state through a billion special tax incentives. There’s nothing particularly wonderful about private jets that should exempt them from a reasonable corporate tax (not to say that the United State’s current corporate tax rate is reasonable).

15

OMG, Obama is going to change the tax laws of other countries too! That is bad.

But given various economic policy choices I always side with the ones that help rich people. Capital gains taxes are bad flat rates on wages are good; income tax is bad sales taxes are good, minimum wage laws are bad oil depreciation exemptions are good.

16

It is a depreciation tax. Now, the difference here is a change from depreciating the plane over five years to depreciating it over seven years.

That amounts to a fraction of a percent of the budget. Not enough to warrant a mention from the President several times in an afternoon.

Calling that window dressing would be an insult to properly dressed windows everywhere.

17

No dog in this particular fight, but I have to ask…

Is it possible that they came up with numbers they got because they don’t really *get *statistical analysis?

Meaning maybe they were incompetent rather than dishonest?

18

Of course it’s possible.

But of the three methodological errors identified by Politifact (and provided to Pelosi’s office, who declined to adopt the changes) two of them would require an exceptionally obtuse viewpoint to believe: the time range problem and the use of public debt vs. gross debt. The first is pretty damn basic…how can you compare eight years to two years? The second is understandable, perhaps, except for the fact that the chart explicitly claimed it was using one, and then used the other.

I suppose the third, overall debt vs. debt as a percentage of GDP, is something someone might reasonably miss.

But adding up the basic errors – shaving a year off Obama’s spending and adding it to Bush’s, comparing the start of Obama’s term to the entirety of Bush’s, and claiming to use public debt and actually using gross debt figures – and also noting that each and every error favored their side, a neat piece of luck if pure incompetence was in play – I conclude the likelihood is slight.

But possible? Sure.

19

I think ‘exceptionally obtuse’ covers most of congress.

Of course, there’s no reason a person can’t be an idiot AND a liar…

20

Indeed.

But by way of contrast, here is the statement offered by the OP as an example of obvious and blatant lying on the part of Orrin Hatch: