How do we know that global warming is due to greenhouse gases?

First, let me apologize for yet another thread on climate change. Whatever else may be needed to address the issue, you certainly seem to have the ‘arguing endlessly over the internet’ part covered by now. I believe my question does have a factual answer however, so here I am anyway.

What I would like to understand, more specifically, is what led the IPCC hive mind to conclude in its latest report that “[m]ost of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely [defined as >90%] due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations.” Where does that figure actually come from?

From a cursory reading of said report, I gather that this explanation is consistent with the pattern of observed warming in a way that alternative, physically plausible explanations are not. But I don’t see how this evidence - which I neither dispute nor really understand - is sufficient to establish that the probability that they are mistaken is no more then ten percent. That seems like quite a feat, to be able to quantify your ignorance like that. So what am I missing? Is there an objective basis for the oft-cited 90% figure or does that fall under the “expert judgement” clause? Please fight my ignorance.

Finally, please note that I’m not asking wether the IPCC is actually correct in its assessment, just curious as to the rationale behind this particular conclusion. Therefore, if you believe that Kyoto is some sort of socialist scheme, as does our Prime Minister, please take it to GD.

That I know of, there are three categories of evidence lending to the conclusion that global warming is anthropogenic.

  1. The upturn of the average global temperature (AGT) from the end of the 19th Century (the weakest evidence, and hence the most debated.)
  2. The link between CO[sub]2[/sub] in the atmosphere and how it tracks with the AGT over the last 30,000 years. How much CO[sub]2[/sub] is being released into the atmosphere by humanity is very quantifiable. You can look up the numbers yourself by visiting the Department of Energy’s website.*
  3. Computer modelling of the reaction of sunlight in the atmosphere with varying levels of CO[sub]2[/sub] (and other gasses), which have been verified against history when sudden releases of CO[sub]2[/sub] by volcanos to provide reasonably predictive results, come to a result of increasing global warming with the amount of CO[sub]2[/sub] being released by humanity and none or significantly less without it.

Personally, I think that the most telling thing is that the United States government itself agrees with the IPCC results:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentcc.html

Hm, change 30,000 years to 650,000.

According to the report, the historic high point for CO[sub]2[/sub] in the atmosphere is ~300ppm and we’re at 379ppm, where the range was always between 180-300 (120ppm difference), so a 79ppm increase is pretty impressive.

:spades::heart::clubs::diamonds:–your Username is a blight & a nuisance.

If you subscribe, please ask the Moderators to change it.

mmmmmmmm Bosda, isn’t this the sort of comment that isn’t really allowed outside of the deep place? :dubious:

As for the OP: Presumably, the determination is based upon a statistical analysis that shows that the hypothesis is correct with a 90% confidence level. This is the sort of thing that can be mathematically determined; it’s actually one of the easier things to do with statistics (assuming that the data you are using is accurate).

No.
I am not insulting** WXYZ**, I am pointing out that it is VERY hard to use this in a Thread.

And hasn’t there already been a ruling against Wing Ding Usernames?

I seem to recall…

Bosda–indeed, such comments belong in another Fora.

And the irony of you with all of your sig. variations talking about blight and nuisance…sheesh!

samclem GQ moderator

i apologise, if I have offended.

Apparently, my remarks were more harshly phrased than I intended.

In fact, I came in here just to say that I think it’s a bad-ass username.

Yep, more or less.

<mod>

And in that vein, I’m going to ask our esteemed new Guest to email tubadiva@aol.com and request a username change.

Nice touch, however it’s been ruled against in the past and we must stick to that.

Thank you, apologies for any hard feelings, and welcome to our community.

</mod>

I think that’s an interesting question, and I would invite you to post it to my thread in Great Debates. In fact, my most recent post started to address the “attribution” question.

Here’s an interesting contrary point of view. Which side to believe is left as an exercise for the reader.

17,200 Scientists Dispute Global Warming

The opening paragraphs state:

You can also check out the Environmental Effects of Increased Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide paper for a ton of research results, including some interesting graphs.

Umm “Open Source Media”. “Citizen Journalists”. I think that’s basically just a blog.

First let me say that “know” is not quite right. No scientific fact is actually known. It is just a belief based, however, on strong evidence.

First it is “known” that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. This means that it is transparent to visible wavelenghts of light, but opaque in the infrared (or a large part of the infrared regions at any rate). It is no accident that the visible wavelengths of light are those to which the major constituents of the atmosphere are transparent. (They are N2, 78%; O2, 21%; CO2, 1%–the rest are in trace amounts.)

The result is that incoming radation comes right through the atmosphere. Actually, that’s not entirely true since there is plenty of infrared and ultraviolet in the incoming radiation, but we don’t see them. But the heat of the earth is reradiated, especially at night, mostly in the infrared band. The night earth is pretty much black in the visible light band and certainly in the UV. More CO2, then less reradiation is expected. I believe that it is mainly the CO2 in the upper atmosphere that is responsible.

Anyway, the result is that one would predict that more radiation = less reradiation = higher temperatures. Ok, that is a prediction and not every prediction comes true. Maybe the theory was wrong, maybe there are confounding factors (for example if more CO2 meant less cloud that would be a confounding factor). So now you look to see, has the temperature actually risen? It would seem that it has. Is the weather different? It would seem to be. But weather is so variable that it takes a long time to establish that it really is different. For example, in Montreal last winter had much less snow than historical records show is normal, but this winter we are well above average for accumulation till Dec. 23 (but it is raining right now and a lot will disappear tonight). So there is always wiggle room for claims that the greenhouse effect has been exaggerated.

Then there are some disturbing facts. Like that the northwest passage seems to be opening during the summer. This has not happened, certainly since 1492. And the arctic ice is at historic lows. The Greeland ice cap and the West Antartic ice are melting at unprecedented speeds. Forty years ago, a friend who skis in Switzerland told me that the Rhone glacier had come down to 2000 meters altitude 100 years earlier and was now only at 3000.

On the other side, I was on a cruise to Glacier Bay a year and a half ago and we went right in and saw the remaining glaciers. In 1800, the entire bay was ice locked. But they told us that the native tribes claimed that they had had settlements there in earlier centuries. They weren’t believed until they actually could study the interior when they discovered remains of settlements from several centuries earlier. So the bay had frozen and then unfrozen. Which illustrates how hard it is to draw firm conclusions.

When all is said and done it seems to me that the weight of evidence is that there is global warming and it is man made. Incidentally, if there is global warming and it is not man made, it still behooves us to act to avert it, since it is to our long-term interest to do so. The idea that if we didn’t cause it, then we don’t have to act would imply, for example, that we should not bother to build especially carefully in earthquake zones since no one claims that human activities cause earthquakes.

Well, yes, the first link is just a blog. And this is just a message board. The blog contains a link to

Just food for thought. I’m not a climatologist, but I do think we ought to take a look at more than one viewpoint. After all, it wouldn’t be the first time a huge political entity made an assertion that turned out to be wrong, now would it?

This is the infamous ‘Oregon Institute’ petition, from 1998. Anyone, and their dog, could claim to be a ‘scientist’, and sign it; many did.
Here’s the Oregon Petition, at Wikipedia.

Shit, I like :spades::heart::clubs::diamonds:’s username. Can’t you guys let it go? It’s not going to cause any confusion.

Agreed. It’s a ridculous rule. What are letters, after all, if not symbols?

Somehow I have a feeling that this question isn’t going to be answered in a GQ type way…

My own non-climate specialist answer is that there is evidence of a shift in higher temperatures world wide in the last century (though perhaps this is open to interpretation). Additionally there has been a measurable increase in CO2. Which is a greenhouse gas. So, you have a theory that increases in C02 in the atmosphere lead to higher temperatures…and you have data that shows that C02 HAS increased in the past hundred years coupled with evidence that global temperatures are rising.

So, the theory SEEMS to be valid as the evidence SEEMS to validate it. That’s what science is all about…you formulate a testable theory, then you test it. Then you have other people test it (which seems to be the case with this theory) as many times as possible…and you review the results, then publish them so that all your peers can take a look and reproduce the experiments and see what results THEY get.

Thus far the theory seems, to me at least, to be born out by the data. I have no idea how they arrive at a 90% probability that the theory is correct…that part sounds suspicious to me. Scientists don’t normally quantify a theory in those terms, at least not from my own understanding.

As far as the name hijack, if the poster actually signs up to become a member I think a character name is fine. I don’t see how it’s offensive and really I usually just cut and paste people’s names anyway…so what difference?

-XT