Because I’m looking for concrete suggestions and have gotten some good ones. The thread wasn’t “Should I…?” or “Ugh, I have to…”, it was “How do I?”
Oh, sure, and that sounds great–as does the stylist appointment. I was just remembering how it felt for an adult to “subtly” let me know they thought I looked like a dirty hippie/slob/satanist/whatever and grind whatever remote self-esteem I had under their fashionable heel. There are much better ways to go about doing it, but the label “makeover” carries with it some pretty nauseating connotations, at least in my mind.
It can go either way, depending on how it’s handled. I hated my mother taking me clothes shopping at that age because it did feel almost as bad as you described. But I would have reveled in the attention from other adults - it would have been a huge confidence boost that someone thought I was worth that time and effort without the pressure of being my parent and ‘having to’.
If the niece is into makeover shows (as I asked) then the word won’t have those negative connotations for her.
In my post I tried to stress that it’s about making the young woman feel worthwhile and valued rather than a good deed done by the aunt. If it’s handled as ‘learning how a woman does these things, now that you’re old enough’ (perfect phrasing, WhyNot, exactly what I was trying to describe) then it isn’t humiliating, it’s help from people who care.
From what the OP’s said, the niece has had years of no-one bothering to tell her how she looks, it doesn’t seem to be working for her.
Zsofia, rent her a copy of Now Voyager, it has some great messages about standing up for yourself, making your own adulthood, and sticking to the right choices - even when you’d rather get that man.
I’m the father of two daughters (one late teens, the other early twenties) who’ve both had emotional problems to one degree or another. I haven’t got anything new to add, just reinforcing others’ suggestions.
The driving thing really works, plus, I find that sitting in the car after the drive to talk works very well. We’ve discussed it, and they agree it it seems easier to open up.
It is probably worth checking out the abuse angle. She is exhibiting some of the symptoms.
One daughter has dredds (she’s white), and it can hours (six or more) to completely detangle them (probably at least a two movie job). But it can be done.
It is partly her age. There really aren’t that many great thirteen year olds out there.
However frustrating it seems or becomes - keep your cool. You’ll be her oasis of calm - and she’s got to be able to rely on that.
And as everyone has said - keep talking.
Kudos to you for taking this on.
I’m the father of two daughters (one late teens, the other early twenties) who’ve both had emotional problems to one degree or another. I haven’t got anything new to add, just reinforcing others’ suggestions.
The driving thing really works, plus, I find that sitting in the car after the drive to talk works very well. We’ve discussed it, and they agree it it seems easier to open up.
It is probably worth checking out the abuse angle. She is exhibiting some of the symptoms.
One daughter has dredds (she’s white), and it can take hours (six or more) to completely detangle them (probably at least a two movie job). But it can be done.
It is partly her age. There really aren’t that many great thirteen year olds out there.
However frustrating it seems or becomes - keep your cool. You’ll be her oasis of calm - and she’s got to be able to rely on that.
And as everyone has said - keep talking.
Kudos to you for taking this on.
This is a great idea. I was lucky enough to have older cousins who took me under their wing when I was that age, and they did exactly that kind of thing, although they taught me how to do the makeup and hair themselves. What would have been excruciating coming from my mom–“That’s a great color on you! You should wear blue more often”–was validating coming from my cool older cousins.
Another thought: one of the best presents I ever got was from those cousins when I was thirteen. It was a copy of Our Bodies, Our Selves. It’s just chock-a-block full of information and advice about things I was too mortified to ask anybody. It wasn’t written for teens, but for adult women, and I really appreciated that.
I don’t how to explain this… but as a 13 year old this person is becoming even more aware than ever about how society demands women’s conformance to a very narrow ideal. The phrase “how a woman does things” would have set me to bristling at 13, and still kind of does, actually – you realize that you are actualy saying in the converse, that if you don’t do those things, you’re not a woman? I would assume she is not ignorant of the approved way of going about things, but rather that she is intentionally rejecting approval on those grounds. I know that for me, there is no sentence more infuriating than “you have to…”
It just feels like everyone’s trying to “helpfully” pack this girl into a nice friendly conforming box - where she is suitably pretty and presentable in the standard way, does “what other girls do,” and and doesn’t make any waves. Maybe she doesn’t want to be the same as everyone else. She just doesn’t know how to do that in a positive way.
I If she asks about “traditionally feminine pasttimes” (makeup, clothes, etc) then by all means, knock yourself out. But it really bothers me that so many people are jumping to make her fit in, rather than find her own internal compass that points in a positive direction. Why not take her for skateboard lessons, or find someone to teach her to play the bass? Something she can affirmatively say yes to… because right now all she is saying is no.
Well, I mean, the kid needs school clothes. She needs to do something about her hair, not because it’s “not feminine” or “unladylike” but because it’s gross and unsanitary and I don’t believe it’s been washed. There’s a huge difference between teaching a kid how to wear makeup and teaching a kid how to take care of their skin. I mean, you don’t get to “say no” to a good washing until you’re 18. Then you can do whatever you like.
ETA - and I know it’s been done before but JESUS H. CHRIST WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE JUNIORS DEPARTMENT? I felt kind of sleazy just walking around in there! (Luckily, I didn’t have to argue about that - she vetoed a few shirts for being low-cut that I even thought were fine. I did have to convince her to try jeans one size up, but once she did she realized they fit a lot better.)
I wouldn’t assume that. Knowing that you need to wash your face every morning, that you have to brush your hair, that you should wear deodorant–these are not instinctive. It sounds like her parents haven’t been doing a good job of teaching her these thing. Aunt Zsofia could. No one’s saying she has to be a cheerleader. I think the suggestions about skateboarding and bass lessons are great. But being a smelly, matted-hair girl skater isn’t going to win you any friends among the skater crowd either.
By the way, does anybody have any suggestions about more personal stuff? She doesn’t seem to wear a bra and she doesn’t need one - I’d say just from a glance that she’s a late developer, and you’d think she was much younger than 13. She said she didn’t need any underwear, but I’m not sure she’d tell me if she did, and like I said above, when I was that age I didn’t tell anybody I was in dire need of new undies either. Her mom is pretty much nonfunctional and I figure she’s getting to the age where she doesn’t want to tell her dad that she needs new panties or that she wants to start wearing bras or that she needs tampons, but when you’re that age anything like that is far, far too cringeingly embarrassing to discuss with anyone. Any suggestions on how to make sure she’s getting the stuff she needs?
Hmmm, you’ve already taken her for school clothes, right? Is there any way you could engineer another trip to Target for a few more shirts? While you’re there, just pick up some underwear without making a big deal out of it. Just part of the back-to-school routine. You could also throw some pads and panti-liners in the cart, too, without making a big deal out of it. Just a casual comment like, “I hate it when I run out unexpectedly. It’s always good to have extras on hand.”
Even if she doesn’t need a bra yet, it might not be a bad idea for her to get a few sports bras/soft camisoles. If nothing else, she doesn’t want the mean girls making fun of her for not wearing one.
Well, I also noticed that some of the shirts my mom picked up for her to try on would be kind of sheer enough that you might wanna wear a bra with them, you know? You never know about the lighting.
I mean, I have no idea if she’s menstruating or not. She’s really little - you might look at her and think she was as young as eight or nine.
Good point, and another good reason for her to get something, even if it’s not a proper bra.
I figure it’s better for her to have the pads and not need them, than need them and not have them. That’s not a conversation you want to have with your dad. “I need to go to the store right now.” “Why?” “Uhhh…”
I think, in this case, it’s you. My mother didn’t say “a woman” to distinguish me from “a man”, but from “a little girl”.
As a little girl, I wasn’t allowed to wear makeup. When I was 13 (and really, really, wanted to be a Grown Up Woman), I was allowed to, but only after learning how to do it properly. Not properly as in tea and crumpets, properly as in, “here’s how you blend colors and what colors look good with your skin tone”.
I wasn’t allowed to cook, weed the garden, drive a car or use her sewing machine without lessons, either. Putting on makeup is no more an inborn knowledge than anything else. If she’s going to do it, she might as well learn how to use the tools properly. She can then decide whether she wants rose lipstick or black or none at all.
(And, I’d also have you know that I’ve given my *son *some makeup tips. Why should he suffer a zit in school pictures when the girls can cover theirs up? He now knows not only how to cover up redness, but how to do it so he doesn’t look like he’s wearing anything, it that’s what he wants. Welcome to the Aughts!)
I don’t particularly care if someone has neatly matted hair which is cleaned with solvents instead of water - dredlocks look really great on some people. But they are not achieved or maintained by not washing or brushing. They’re a hairstyle to be chosen purposefully, not something you end up with 'cause you don’t know what else to do. It’s not about gender expectations, it’s about hygiene!
Don’t get her a bra until she needs one or asks for one. Until then, undershirts or camisoles work just fine under translucent shirts. I’d just get her a 6 pack of underwear at Target - they’re sized like pants, I believe, so if you know her pants size from shopping, just grab her some undies while you’re at it.
You can call her school and find out what and when they teach re: puberty and sex ed. Then just fill in the gaps best you can. Will her parents freak out if you buy her a book like Our Bodies, Our Selves or What’s Happening To My Body? I found (with my very shy son) that simply leaving a book on his desk with no comment was the most comfortable way to handle it. A few weeks later, I mentioned, in passing, “oh, about that book - if you have any questions, you know…” and he blushed and mumbled something negatory. I added, “Or, you know, talk to Uncle Johnny if you want…” and that was more or less the end of that. But we’ve had a pretty frank relationship about sex and things - the things we haven’t talked about specifically were things like hair growth, masturbation and what to do with a boner in Algebra class. I felt it best to leave those things to the males in his life unless he brings them to me.
She’ll start developing breast buds before she starts bleeding. So you’ll know when it’s time to toss her a pack of pads before she needs them. Don’t make it a big deal, just, “Here, thought you might need these soon. If you have any questions, you know…”
Ok, I’m not doing this well, but one more try. As a little girl, I didn’t give a shit about makeup. I wanted to be a Grown Up as much as anyone - but not by painting my face - by doing Real Things ™ like riding the subway alone, going to the movies without any parents, getting my working papers and getting a Real job ™ as opposed to babysitting, stuff like that. (BTW, makeup would not have been forbidden to me had I wished to wear it).
The idea that all 13 year old girls have this thirst for makeup knowledge is… not a forgone conclusion. Nor is it in any way necessary knowledge for adulthood. The first time I wore eyeliner was in college. I have never worn blush yet in this lifetime, and don’t plan to, ever.
bear in mind that, as a little girl I was 1 of only 2 girls in the whole baseball league (my mom made them give me a special girl trophy with boobs & everything). I also got my first period at 9. And I didn’t see any need to tell my mother about it, because I knew exactly what was happening and what to do, and didn’t find it any of her business.
So between being a giant tomboy, earning my mark of “official womanhood” at an extraordinarily young age, and being an ultra-independent self-sufficient child, you know, I’m sure I’m not perfectly average example.
But I don’t think the OP’s niece is a particularly average example either.
No, I think she’s an unaverage example in the other direction, though. She’s not yet developing, but she’s talking about boys and “She moons after boys like she was four years older and six orders of magnitude dumber. We fully expect her to turn up pregnant within the next few years.” The OP thinks she may be interested in “cosmetology school” and she likes “Rock School” (I’m guessing that meant “High School Musical”, but I am not up on current television for tweens) and “current shitty teenage movies”. This sounds to me like a girl who will want to wear makeup in the next few years, if she doesn’t already.
Plus, what I was responding to was specifically the notion that a “makeover” would make her feel bad because it would be telling her she’s broken. I wasn’t the one to suggest a makeover, merely a way of presenting it that doesn’t make her feel like she’s shit, but that she’s learning, and capable of learning.
I understand you were a tomboy. When there’s a thread about how an aunt can help a tomboy, I’ll answer differently. But my answers in this thread are targeted to *this *girl, or what little I can imagine she might be like from what the OP says. And she sure doesn’t sound like a tomboy.
Hello Again, I’m really really *really * trying to clear up that a makeover should only be offered should be if that is what the niece is intersted in - third time I’ve said it. If she’s into grunge, or hates makeover shows it obviously won’t work.
If she’s never been taught how to look after herself and feels inadequate because of that, it could be very helpful. Not everyone hates shopping at 13 - not every adult needs to be the enemy crushing her fashion spirit.
And I spend three hours a week with my preteen daughter at the skate park because I know damned well *she * doesn’t want to be made over and I wouldn’t be the one to give her advice if she did. She already has better fashion sense than I ever did, she’s just not that into it.
Zsofia; Second the *Our Bodies, Our Selves * - or even the less intense What’s happening to Me?,anything that tells her she is entering a new phase of life and *she gets to choose * how she represents herself in this new phase. It sounds like she’s beginning to open up, even if it’s just to make her clothing choices known (and give her kudos for not heading down the ‘teen prostitute’ aisle).
With my kid, anything ‘girly’ is instant trash, but she likes ‘elegantly feminine’ - which reflects her attitudes in life, girls are giggly and silly, women are strong and intelligent (in her view).
What kind of woman does “A” respect, does she want to grow up to be like that? What’s the first step between her and her heroine?
Personal items might have to wait until there is more trust and rapport between you. It was horridly open when I grew up so I have no clues how to approach it subtly, but my Mum still talks about the Aunty who gently led her through all that info back in the 50’s - the relationship had been long established before they went near *that * kind of conversation.
I’ll third the book recommendations, but I’ll also say that just adding some pads or pantyliners to the cart at Target is not a good idea. If she is a late-bloomer, that may be really embarassing for her. I did not get my first period until sometime between 15 and 16. We got the sex ed talk about menstruation when I was 10, so I felt like quite the failure as a woman because I was a late-bloomer. I’d say it’s best to talk with her and see if she is menstruating before buying her any supplies. But as maggenpye says, it’s probably best to establish the relationship before asking those kinds of questions.
I have nothing to offer, but just wanted to say. . . I thought you had made up the word “mooncalf,” as I had never heard it before. I was surprised to see that a) it was coined a long time ago, and b) meant pretty much what I suspected it meant.