How do you civilize a thirteen year old girl? (Long, unflattering.)

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Honestly, when reading your description of her in the OP I wondered if she’s been sexually abused by someone. Perhaps not your “brother”, but someone else? Not brushing her hair, being favored by the father, being over-the-top rude/mean. I could be (and hope I am) totally off base here, but perhaps?
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I agree, it sounds like she needs some counseling, and that there could be abuse issues. That’s probably not within your realm of control, but something to think about when dealing with her and trying to have compassion.

When I have students that I think are pretty “uncivilized” as you put it, I try to show an interest in whatever subject they like the most and let them educate me. Does she like music? Ask her to make you a mixed CD and promise to listen to it. Then, seriously, make yourself listen to it and discuss it with her. I find this really shows kids that you’re interested in their stuff, and sometimes, hell, you actually ARE. Definitely go to the movies with her and talk about the movie. Go shopping and talk clothes if she’s into that, buy her a cute pair of shoes. Praise her whenever you can. Sit and watch her favorite TV show with her and get her to explain it to you. The idea is, she’s the expert and you’re learning from her.

Best advice: TALK to her. I find it hard to believe a 13 year old girl could remain silent in the face of a constant barrage of positive, kind conversation. Dignify her point of view with an open mind, even if sometimes she says horrifying things. Once you establish a rapport, you will be able to comment critically on these negative things she says from a position of emotional leverage, because she will care what you think. Then, unlike her parents, you can use your influence to help her improve herself. If you play your cards right, you could turn into a role model.

I hope it goes well for you and that you are actually able to help her. There’s no guarantees, but your heart and your father’s are in the right place.

22

I was going to reply to Silenus’s post with, “That might well be what started the problem!”, but I didn’t want to cast aspersions! It does seem as though anything could have gone on in that household. :frowning:

23

[QUOTE=Barbarian]
I think the place to start is to sit the kid down and explain the deal: that she’s 13, and it’s time to grow up before she does something stupid and becomes a mother before she’s out of high school. Tell her it’s time that she has to take responsiblity for her own decisions.

Then ask her what she expects to be doing when she finishes high school.
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My usual approach is the other way 'round. I’ve no idea why, but for some reason there’s been many times that some acquaintance has started moaning about their teenager, I’ve basically listened politely and asked a few leading questions, and ended up being told “oh, why don’t you speak with him? He’ll listen to you!” There’s even been times when the conversation started with “oh, Nava, we’re having such a problem with (teenager I used to birthday-sit or taught sunday school to or whatever), you’re the only grown-up he listens to <ah, aren’t you exageratting a bit there? I can’t be the only one!>, please talk to him!”

The problems were never as big as what you describe, but I always start by listening and asking. And, since my parents were so big on lectures and they stung like hell for no good at all, I avoid giving them (doesn’t mean I never give one, only that I avoid them and never, ever, ever let a piece of advice turn into a monologue of orders).

24

Please, don’t harp on her about her hair. I, for my own obscure 13-year old reasons, also wasn’t a great hair-brusher at 13. My mom complained about, pleaded, offered me whatever I wanted…and all it did was make me less likely to change, even when I realized maybe it wasn’t the best look. Kids at this age are eager to assert their identity, and if you try to force an identity on them “normal girl who wants to look pretty” the only way left for them to express their independence is to rebel. All you can do is turn this into a source of shame and therefor a defensive battle ground. Everyone ends up worse off. Let it be- she’ll figure it out for herself soon enough.

My advice is leave some good punk rock CDs somewhere where she can find them. She isn’t a popular cheerleader type. She’s never going to be one. What she needs to do is find a subculture that accepts her, makes her proud of who she is, gives her something to be passionate about. I was a pretty big wreck at 13…smart but failing classes, none-too-clean, depressed and petty. Everything changed when I found punk rock, discovered my place in the world, stopped competing with the popular kids, discovered boys could find me attractive and found a culture that made me feel like something bigger than myself.

Her thing might not be punk rock…but it’s something. It’s out there. If she can find it, it will do her a world of good.

25

I think you should leave her alone. Until you can get past your anger at her parents, you will blame her by association. By calling her white trash, etc, it shows a lack of respect, and without respect, she will not trust you, nor cooperate.

26

[QUOTE=even sven]
Please, don’t harp on her about her hair. I, for my own obscure 13-year old reasons, also wasn’t a great hair-brusher at 13. My mom complained about, pleaded, offered me whatever I wanted…and all it did was make me less likely to change, even when I realized maybe it wasn’t the best look. Kids at this age are eager to assert their identity, and if you try to force an identity on them “normal girl who wants to look pretty” the only way left for them to express their independence is to rebel. All you can do is turn this into a source of shame and therefor a defensive battle ground. Everyone ends up worse off. Let it be- she’ll figure it out for herself soon enough.

My advice is leave some good punk rock CDs somewhere where she can find them. She isn’t a popular cheerleader type. She’s never going to be one. What she needs to do is find a subculture that accepts her, makes her proud of who she is, gives her something to be passionate about. I was a pretty big wreck at 13…smart but failing classes, none-too-clean, depressed and petty. Everything changed when I found punk rock, discovered my place in the world, stopped competing with the popular kids, discovered boys could find me attractive and found a culture that made me feel like something bigger than myself.

Her thing might not be punk rock…but it’s something. It’s out there. If she can find it, it will do her a world of good.
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This, FWIW.
I was exactly the same kid as even sven. I did not want to be the pretty normal feminine girl everyone wished I would be, and every attempt to prod me in that direction made me more reactionary and nasty. I was completely eccentric, and not in an acceptable television adorable nerd who’s really pretty but wears glasses sort of way. Miserable miserable middle school. And the “I love you but I don’t like you” thing wasn’t helping-- love was something people felt OBLIGED to do, but I wanted someone to like me for who I was, and if no one would, I might as well ramp up the unlikable to explain it away. Then in 9th grade or so I found my subculture and direction-- it was like in 9th grade all the losers, dweebs, and other castoffs found each other and found their tribe, which helped a lot. Sure, we, in the big picture, were just as bad of poser trendyness as the other kids (which now there’s a whole chain store dedicated to carrying Cure t-shirts!), but we didn’t have to acknowledge our sheepness at the time, and it helped a lot to have a peer group. She might be unkempt not out of spacey neglect but out of a calculated neglect-- she might headed directly in the cool goth kid direction. Give her breathing room to find her thing. Perhaps her bitchiness will find a quasi-political outlet-- who knows?

27

[QUOTE=capybara]
This, FWIW.
I was exactly the same kid as even sven. I did not want to be the pretty normal feminine girl everyone wished I would be, and every attempt to prod me in that direction made me more reactionary and nasty. I was completely eccentric, and not in an acceptable television adorable nerd who’s really pretty but wears glasses sort of way. Miserable miserable middle school. And the “I love you but I don’t like you” thing wasn’t helping-- love was something people felt OBLIGED to do, but I wanted someone to like me for who I was, and if no one would, I might as well ramp up the unlikable to explain it away. Then in 9th grade or so I found my subculture and direction-- it was like in 9th grade all the losers, dweebs, and other castoffs found each other and found their tribe, which helped a lot. Sure, we, in the big picture, were just as bad of poser trendyness as the other kids (which now there’s a whole chain store dedicated to carrying Cure t-shirts!), but we didn’t have to acknowledge our sheepness at the time, and it helped a lot to have a peer group. She might be unkempt not out of spacey neglect but out of a calculated neglect-- she might headed directly in the cool goth kid direction. Give her breathing room to find her thing. Perhaps her bitchiness will find a quasi-political outlet-- who knows?
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Um, megadittos to everything you wrote. And BTW, although I’m way more “girly” than I used to be, my upcoming wedding has generated all sorts of rage-inducing conversations with my (supposedly feminist) mother, who apparently has not tired of attempting to pressure me into conforming.

The time she told me I “had to” wear high heels under my floor-length skirt because “you’ll won’t feel put-together otherwise” practically made me see red in the Macy’s. Screw you mom, don’t tell me how I’ll feel. I’m not going to be uncomfortable on my own wedding day just to conform to your bullshit sexist expectations about how “women” feel about things!

Ahem.

Long story short, it’s not a good idea to start sentences with “you have to…” unless it’s something like breathing which you actually “have to” do to sustain life.

28

Well, at her age I was kind of gross too - not really into the showering every day thing, and don’t tell anybody but I only had three pairs of underwear I liked and I’d wear them as often as I had to so I wouldn’t have to wear anything else. Darned them myself when they acquired holes, too. My mom would have to smell my shirts sometimes to see if they were clean. Not because I was so very cool and gothy - I don’t know why, really. So it’s not like it’s a foreign concept to me - except it is, once you grow out of it. I guess it’s like not being able to really relate to when you were little and couldn’t read or something.

So perhaps it’s personal prejudice (having been kind of the smelly kid myself) but I just don’t detect it as evidence of abuse. I think we’re going this Saturday to shop for some school clothes - I’ll ask my mom for advice on “makeover”. I do like the idea. Partly because her own parents can’t seem to tell the difference between “school appropriate” and “streetwalker”, and then the kid puts them together in really weird and odd ways. Surely we can find some things together that she likes (if I can get an opinion out of her) and that Aunt Sara thinks are appropriate for a thirteen year old girl. I’m hoping the new haircut will have to be short enough that it will be hard not to keep clean.

I’m surprised nobody has commented on Sage Rat’s “work for me” idea. I think it may have some merit and will consider it more closely.

29

I did not get the vibe that this girl is a budding goth. There is a difference between having messy hair and getting in pitched battles with your parents about it, and having messy hair because your parents can’t be bothered to pay attention. **Zsofia ** is in a position to judge which situation is going on here. Personally, if the girl wanted her “makeover” to be on the gothy side, I’d be OK with that.

Zsofia, regarding the conversation, there was an article in the NY Times about 2 years ago about how conversing with very small kids on a regular basis --like “Look, here are the apples, should we get red ones or green ones?” was a huge factor in effective vs. ineffective parenting. It sounds like maybe her parents didn’t do that. Bad parenting tended to mean parents rarely talking to the kids except to tell them to shut up. If that’s what things are like at her house, chatting with adults probably isn’t the norm for her. I don’t have any suggestions here, but just pointing out one potential origin for the problem.

30

There’s a lot of good advice here, even the conflicting stuff. With kids, you have to try a lot of stuff to find what works. So “talk to her - just keep talking!” and “Stop talking and listen!” are BOTH good pieces of advice. You’ll probably have to try both and some more besides to find what works.

My favorite way of getting kids to open up is to take a car ride. Seriously, it’s like magic. No ipod, no DVD player, just sit 'em in the seat next to you and start driving. Even my son, the most private contemplative Capricorn on the planet will open up during a car ride. I think maybe it has something to do with the impossibility of eye contact - the level of intimacy is entirely up to the kid, because I can’t take my eyes off the road.

You have no idea the bizarre “long-cuts” I’ve taken to get to the mall sometimes, when he gets into an interesting topic. Sometimes the mall is 20 minutes away, sometimes it’s an hour! :smiley:

Don’t try to find good things about her crappy movies - instead, ask *her *what’s good about them. Ask her, if she was in the movie, what part she’d like to play. Or ask her, if the movie was real, which character she’d like to be and why. That might give you some interesting insights. I wonder if she likes escapist crap because, y’know, she’d like to escape?

Rent Children of Heaven and watch it with her. Great movie, higher brow. If she doesn’t like it, she’s an asshole . :wink: Try some of your favorites from yesteryear: The Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, The Neverending Story (cute boys in that one!), The Watcher in the Woods, The Secret of Roan Inish, Return to Oz, etc. Sure, they’re a little young for your average 13 year old, but my guess is her parents haven’t gone out of their way to expose her to classic children’s cinema. Oh, and have you seen Enchanted? Really, really fun movie that’s not at all as crappy as it sounds. If she’s truly resistant to such “kids movies”, try Clueless, *Emma * (same story, 200 years apart) or *Titanic *to appeal to her romantic side. Edward Scissorhands, What’s Eating Gilbert Grape, and *Powder *are great ones for themes of alienation and isolation, which I expect she might relate to - but check ratings and use your best judgment.

The one thing I wouldn’t worry too much about is her hair and slovenliness. While in adults we like to use these as a judge of character, in children it’s usually just because they’re careless. When she becomes interested in boys - really interested, not just talk - you can help her learn better hygiene and she’ll actually be interested in it. It might take longer than you think - my son didn’t really give a shit until almost 15, no matter what we did. Then, wouldn’t you know it, he developed a crush on my friend Gina, and when I told him how *Gina *recommended he wash his hair thrice a week and use conditioner and comb it through in the shower so his curls wouldn’t frizz - well darned if he didn’t suddenly figure it out! (I’d been telling him the same thing for about 10 years, BTW!) Gina, bless her heart, complimented him on his hair the next time she saw him AND mentioned how much she likes men with a really close shave! Score! Next day, he asked for money to buy a new razor. :smiley:

Two important things I do agree on: get her into counseling so they can poke around her noggin and see if she’s been sexually abused. It does sound like she has some of the classic behavioral symptoms. Some kids act out, some become “vacant” - both are common responses to sexual activity before they’re developmentally ready.

Second, (it’s already been stated, but it’s so important I’ll say it, too) don’t get into this unless you’re prepared for the long haul. It could be more damaging to her to have you take an interest and then drop her than to never get involved in the first place. If you get involved and then drift away (for whatever reason, good or bad), she may very well interpret that as further evidence that she’s worthless and horrible and that’s why no one loves her.

31

Children of Heaven?

Sounds to me like Zsofia needs to watch Nell.

32

I’ll only add this: can you find something, anything that you have in common? Hell, have her over and have your old middle school yearbook out so she can see how dorky you looked (we all looked dorky). Talk about stuff like how fashions come back but with a twist–I don’t know just what you should talk about, but the attitude should be low key but warm, if you follow me.

I think that if you start this, you are in it for the long haul, but it doesn’t have to be full time work. You’re an aunt of sorts, not someone she sees every day. You could friend her on Facebook or Myspace (or is 13 too young? Can’t recall when my kids started on FB).

Be patient. Give it time–you need to build trust and trust is one thing she really doesn’t have. I feel sorry for her, but I feel more sorry for the middle child–whom it seems you like. IMO, he needs you, too. I’m sure the youngest son needs you as well. It is always so much harder to make up for shit parenting than it is to do half ass parenting in the first place. Good luck.

33

[QUOTE=Barbarian]
I think the place to start is to sit the kid down and explain the deal: that she’s 13, and it’s time to grow up before she does something stupid and becomes a mother before she’s out of high school. Tell her it’s time that she has to take responsiblity for her own decisions.
[/QUOTE]

If she was 19 or 20 this might have an effect, but at 13 that speech will be nothing but noise to her. I’ve tried it a few times with my little brother, now 14, over the past couple of years. He’s the most responsible, polite, intelligent 14 year old you’ll ever meet, except he and his other brother (age 11) treat each other like dirt. I’ve had a number of “man-to-man” talks with him about the fact that he’s about reached the age where it’s no longer a sibling rivalry so much as it is his being an asshole, and how it’s his responsibility as the older and more mature party to be the one who starts treating the other like a human being. Even this kid – who, again, is extremely mature and responsible for his age, apparently quite unlike Zsofia’s niece – just tunes out these speeches.

So, I’m pretty sure a more oblique approach is necessary; you just can’t come at something like this head on.

34

But that’s a sibling talking to two younger brothers. They aren’t ever going to respect you enough to listen.

Og knows my sibs never listened to a word I said unless it was followed by a good beating. But that’s siblings for you.

35

Please… please, please don’t offer her a makeover. It’s like holding up a screaming neon sign that says “we all think you look gross, and want to dress you up like someone/something you’re not”. Seriously, the very idea makes me gag. It’s shameful and humiliating.

I may be have a hyper-sensitive reaction to this, but I honestly cannot imagine any other personal reaction to such a suggestion from an adult wanting to pretty me up, when I was a teenager.

As others have said, she’ll figure it out. She can see people around her, in her peer group and in public. Once she has a reason to want to take care of herself, she will.

Just make sure that after the professional haircut, she has the tools to continue to care for her hair–maybe make a gift of a nice ox horn comb, some good, no-detergent shampoo and conditioner, and maybe a little bottle of monoi oil for her hair and the comb.

Otherwise, if you do decide to be a role model for her, good luck, and my very best of wishes. It sounds like she needs someone, badly.

36

Urgh, “her mom woke up too late” to take her for her haircut today. Mom and I ended up taking her to Belk’s for school clothes today because Mom got some kind of senior discount today there, and she was okay. Not, you know, talkative, but sometimes present. We went to dinner afterwards and I really tried to include her in our conversation - we were talking about the Olympics in China, and I used the phrase “Potemkin villages” and explained to her what that meant, and I got a genuine laugh out of her about the idea of such a Big Lie, and then funnily enough my mom mentioned North Korea in a completely different context and I told her that I’d heard that people on the “official tour” saw subway stations that were always full with the same people… now is that a learning opportunity or what? :slight_smile:

Some of you may remember that Himself has a film photography store with a darkroom and lessons and such. I thought she might really enjoy taking a photography lesson and then learning how to use the darkroom, just because it’s so cool and fun that I think anybody would enjoy it. I asked her about it and she said that sounded fun, so this Saturday or next maybe we’ll do that.

If her mother doesn’t take her to get her hair cut tomorrow, though, my mom’s going to force the issue. We would have gone to Great Clips today, but when we asked A if she’d rather go today or tomorrow she said she didn’t want to go today, and it’s not like you get to control much in your life at 13, right? But I did explain to her just to prepare her that she’s probably going to end up with a much shorter haircut than she expects. I showed her some pictures of me with super-short hair, but considering how I photograph that may or may not have been a good idea.

37

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
I’m the trustee for them and I’ve been planning for years to make sure their trusts will cover college for Boy 2, occupational therapy for Boy 3, and cosmetology school and an abortion for A.
[/QUOTE]

I have no advice- I just thought I’d mention that I am going to hell for laughing my ass off at that…

:cool:

38

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
But I did explain to her just to prepare her that she’s probably going to end up with a much shorter haircut than she expects. I showed her some pictures of me with super-short hair, but considering how I photograph that may or may not have been a good idea.
[/QUOTE]

You know, if she doesn’t want a short cut, you can probably get a lot of those knots and mare’s nests out with a boatload of conditioner and a wide toothed comb. It won’t be terribly pleasant, but with some patience and a movie to distract you both, it can be done. Just start from the bottom, apply a lot of conditioner, and pick at it and repeat. I’ve taken out dredlocks that way. (Out of white people’s hair. If she has African hair, I have no idea if it’ll work. I don’t know her ethnic background.)

While I agree that a “makeover” might be humiliating, she’s young enough that it can be done in the guise of “learning how a woman does these things, now that you’re old enough.” Before I was allowed to wear makeup, my mother took me to a makeup artist for instructions. We walked out with a set of foundation, powder, lip, cheek and eye colors, and I knew how to apply it without, as my mother put it, “looking like a streetwalker”. Was it a makeover of sorts? Sure, I guess. But it wasn’t humiliating, it was education.

39

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
Okay, before you break out the pitchforks and the torches, I have anticipated you. … Think of me what you please, but please think it to yourself.
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My first thought was that you need a crash course in behavior modification techniques. I don’t have one handy, but I have been a step-parent to one with a troubled custodial parent. Some suggestions:

  1. Wait it out. Early teens are just monsters; no-one really likes them.

  2. Set short term rules and boundaries. I think Sunday Dinners are a good means for this.

  3. Be brutally honest. “That makes you look/sound like trash, sweetie.”

  4. Drive together. The privacy without eye-contact permits better conversation with an oh-so-cynical teen

40

Zsofia. You apparently are in the position of maybe having to care for a child that you don’t, in fact, care for. Why are you asking for advice when you gave us the answer up front? Similarly, why are you asking for opinions of her and telling us at the same time that you already know what she’s like? Maybe you do. But if what you want is permission for what you’ve decided to do anyway, go ahead. But don’t involve us: put this thread to bed and just…go…ahead.