I’m not talking hundred-thousand-dollar jobs here; I’m talking about simple jobs of a few hundred bucks.
I’ve dealt with four (I think) contractors in the two years that we’ve owned a home. Of these, one of them completely screwed us over; he’s the one that taught me not to pay until the entire job is done.
One of them was fine.
The other two gave me bids, based on which I agreed to let them do the job; then, when the job was about 90% done, they told me that the cost would end up being higher. Not hugely higher, but about $75 higher (on a $150 job and a $400 job).
In both cases, I paid them; but I’m wondering whether I was a sucker. Is it common for contractors to lowball their bids in order to get the job, and then inflate them once it comes time for payment? Is it acceptable to stick to the initial bid?
In neither case did I have a written contract with them, and maybe that was the problem: maybe I should have insisted on getting something in writing beforehand. But I’m new at this sort of thing, and ignorant.
My contracts state specifically what I’m doing. If extra work comes up, I will usually rebid. Sometimes, tho, I just go ahead and do it without bothering to do that and not charging for it. But never on something huge.* I view contracts as essential. Sometimes the contracts have to be worded to exclude things not done too, not just what is getting done.
On my contracts, I also specify what deposit may be required, but I stsate that payment of it comes after the first day of work, balance due on completion. If it’s a long job and I want periodic draws, that’s listed too. All this is always discussed with the homeowner ahead of time, so it’s not a surprise to them. As often as I’ve heard the horror stories about deadbeat contractors, I’ve likewise heard deadbeat homeowner stories from fellow contractors/subs.
*for instance, if I patch in a wall and match the texture and repaint and yet this causes an old water stain to come thru again (happens), I would stain block and repaint it, even tho the contract never said anything about stain blocking old stains. But if I start to tear out a wall or add a patio door or something and come across dryrot or termite damage, work stops and new bids get made.
Oh yeah, all my work comes from referrals. I haven’t ever had to canvass for jobs. So the deposit issue is a little different for me. Since they contacted me, you see.
If having work bid out on your place, always ask for references. If it’s a huge project being considered, even going to see previous work is not out of line in my book.
That makes sense, noclueboy–but it sounds like you’re talking about large (multi-day) projects. I’m talking about smaller things. SPecifically:
We had to have some waste hauled out of our driveway. The person I hired to do it (over the phone; we never saw each other until the job was almost done) said that when he drove by the house, it looked like it’d take two loads of his truck to the landfill, and it’d cost me $150 for that. I got home just as he’d loaded up the last bit of debris, and he said it was the third load, and that it’d therefore cost me $225. I paid him; should I have?
We hired someone else to patch up the siding on our house. He’d been recommended by someone else, and he said it’d probably cost around $400 to do the job, but we had nothing in writing. When I got home, he’d done a spectacular job, not only patching it up but painting it with paint he’d bought on his own initiative so that the patch job was unnoticeable. He said that the supplies (including the paint he’d bought, the extra of which he left with us for future patch jobs) cost more than his original estimate and the final charge was $475.
I wasn’t really upset in either case about paying extra, but I was wondering whether these guys were playing me for suckers, or whether this sort of cost overrun is typical on small jobs like this, or whether it’s a way to scam new homeowners who don’t know better than to pay.
Speaking from a position of (what I hope is) common sense but with no practical experience whatsoever-- it strikes me that your real problem is that you lack(ed) a good sense of how the pricing was structured and therefore you were taken by surprise.
Your description of the waste issue for example looks to me like the guy drove by and estimated- underestimating either because the pile ended up being larger or heavier than he thought or because doing so might increase the likelihood that you would hire him.
So, he says “$150 for a pile that will take two trips” meaning $75 a trip, probably two trips total.
You hear “$150 for the entire pile” and are a little bothered by being asked to pay for a third trip.
The painting seems similar- if vaguer. My sense is that this isn’t a scam- but you would benefit in the future from asking for more information about the pricing formula. It won’t neccessarily prevent surprises, but you’ll have a better sense of how much it is reasonable to expect to pay.
Incidently- it is funny how we (as people) use words when describing money- not “hugely higher” but $75 higher on a $150 original bid sounds pretty high to me. 2 truck loads turning into 3 is probably reasonable- though it is hard to know how much went into each truckload. One and a half times the original estimate sounds like a pretty big increase- even if the total is still within the range you’d have been willing to pay to begin with.
Example one was an idiot. If I had hired him, I would have held him to the price. It was his fault for not knowing the scope of the job he agreed to. He was asking for a full 50% more money! That’s a sorry way to do business.
Number two, I can see. But… he should have contacted you somehow as soon as he knew there was going to be an extra charge, giving you the power of veto. Legit I would say, but still not good form. Most likely he’s used to working as a sub, dealing with a contractor, where negotiations like this aren’t uncommon. Dealing directly with the homeowner, this shouldn’t be a regular practice, imho.
Yeah–he told me that it would take two trips at $75 a load, and it turned out that he was wrong. I went ahead and paid for the third load for three reasons:
I would’ve felt like a schmuck if I’d refused;
It was still less than the maximum I’d been willing to pay for the job; and
He hadn’t hauled off the third load yet, and if I refused to pay it, he could’ve dumped it back in my driveway.
All the same, I wonder whether I should’ve bargained with him, saying, “Look, you told me you could do it in two loads, which is why I hired you instead of the guy who said he could do it in three loads at $60 a load (or whatever). I think this third load you should give me a discount on, since you got the job based on doing it in two trips.”
In example one, were there any recyclables in the pile? Maybe he loaded that up first, took it down to the drop off and got his 32 cents a pound for aluminum window frames and old storm doors, then came back and had to do two trips to the dump for the rest. If that’s the case, he was also a jerk. If not, he’s still an idiot. (Yeah, I get pretty opinionated about these kinds of goings on.)
Bottom line on ex one: you were paying for the job of removal, not for how many trips it would take. If you left it open, tho, agreeing to $75 per trip, then he’s in the clear and you needed to pay (which the specific wording you used shows wasn’t the case).
Ah, I was composing while you posted, LHOD. Looks like a miscommunication or misunderstanding on both sides, then. You would’ve been right to negotiate, but just getting it done and over with was a good call.
I highly doubt it: it was an old, rotting-through addition to the house, just a roof-on-pillars to protect a car from the elements (I know there’s a name for it, but my mind is drawing a blank).
As for his being an idiot, based on his reaction to my requiring something in writing before I paid him, I’m pretty sure he was illiterate: he wouldn’t even look at the contract, but had me give it to his wife to read.
I guess that even for small jobs, I need to write up a contract in the future, huh? It might be a pain in the butt (I’ve previously had contractors come out when I’m at work, and it’s been the day after I call that they do the work), but for $75, it’ll be worth it.
What you had were estimates, not a contracted job. A contract means a signed, printed document with a lump sum bid. Without an signed agreement, you are subject to additional costs without benefit of change order, although you could have negotiated the amount with the guy, since the lack of a contract works both ways.
What Chefguy said. I think it was Sam Goldwyn who said,
Most contracts have a clause where the contractor has to get approval of any extra work before he starts it.
And check the references.
The second guy you described sounds like the kind of thing it wouldn’t bother me to pay extra for. The first quy, it would. If he dumped the third load back on my driveway, I would have hired someone else to haul it away for $75, and not paid the first guy a dime.
When I’ve done cleanouts, I price them by (a) time to load trailer and (b) tip charge at the transfer station. It’s very difficult to quote accurately owing to variables of mass/weight, so I load a quantity of material which I can safely and legally haul, note the weighmaster ticket and tally them when the job is done.
Regarding other quotes, I offer something like: provide and install 800 SF 3/4" KD douglas fir exterior grade T&G flooring #2 or better, dipsealed, with all fastener holes filled, topcoat to be per customer approval, selection from MAB Timberstain semi-transparent line, one brush coat to be applied.
If it’s an open issue, then I’ll write: Open ceiling above porch to determine degree of rot and/or wood destroying insect damage at a rate of $60/hr. Repair/remediation to be quoted under separate invoice, subject to customer approval.