How do you fight against conspiracies laced with politics?

[Boyo_Jim]

@Fuzzy_wuzzy

That’s probably true, but the thread isn’t just about pizzagate. The thread is about conspiracies laced with politics.

How can there be a conspiracy theory without it being laced with politics? They define the cause, the means and the path, of virtually every conspiracy, real or imagines.

[Salvor]

@adaher

Given CNN’s proclivity for reporting hate crimes as something that definitely happened based solely on the testimony of the victim is not just accidentally getting a story wrong. That’s simply journalistic malpractice. Which of course is still better than someone just making up a story, so your point is well taken. It’s just not as black and white as the self-interested media would like to portray it. After all, they want to keep their old roles as gatekeepers, deciding what we will know and what we will think about it.

But even when they are being well meaning, they debunk stories all wrong. Instead of rating something true or false or half true when it comes to stories being reported outside the mainstream press, they should establish a “plausibility” scale. Say 1 means, “total bullshit, completely disproven”, 5 means, “this is totally true”, with ratings of 3 or 4 being, “quite possibly true, some evidence to support it, but still plenty of doubt.”

Because a lot of fake stories I get sent on social media turn out to be more plausible than the mainstream media likes to admit, and when they claim a story is debunked that isn’t it only reinforces the conspiracy theorists.

In fact, almost every Hillary Clinton scandal was in the 2-4 range of our 1-5 scale. From the Wall Street speeches to the emails, there was a lot of doubt. But in both cases, the doubt existed primarily because of her. So sure, nothing is proven absolutely true or false, but there was enough there for a solid 3, with her refusal to come clean being more than enough to get to 5 for many reasonable people.

I think that should be highlighted. Her shying away from media coverage, hyper attention to hiding email correspondence just fanned the flames of doubt and made the reality look far worse than what it was.

I am pretty convinced the primary reason Hillary had her own private email server, and deleted any emails was almost entirely to do with her not wanting her correspondence to be read by others and used against her in embarrassing ways. If she had just come out and said that, after decades in the public spotlight with numerous statements being used as weapons against her, it might have defanged much of the mystique over the issue. Not all by a long shot, the conservatives and alt right and Alex Jones types would have harpooned that whale unto death, but others?

I think one of the ways Trump defanged some of his controversies, even though he often LIED while doing it, was to give plausible reasons for his past bad behavior. Such a great business man even though he went bankrupt multiple times and has not paid federal taxes for years? He’s a “business” man taking advantage of the system like any business man would. He was like a submarine driving head first into an oncoming missile before it was fully armed and deflating its power before the full payload could be brought to bare.

Hillary just trying to ignore it made her seem more guilty in some mysterious plot.

I think the age when that strategy was possible is gone, there are too many different avenues of information that can get out, twisted beyond all reasonable recognition, and the silence and refusal to take things head on strengthens the believably of some of the worst ideas and misrepresentations. NO one thought Sanders was lying about what he wanted, even people who thought his ideas were that of a fool still believed he thought they would make america a better place. His ideas and intentions were on his sleeve and collar.

Candor, honestly, genuineness, perhaps these are the only weapons we have left. My fear is I am not sure they will be enough, there are so many liars, some state sponsored agitprop from the father of lies, Putin, trying to undermine the legitimacy of American institutions.

[CurtC]

I’ve been following this pizzagate thing for two or three weeks now, and since all the news stories have come out about the guy going into Comet with a gun, they all say that the pizzagate thing was a fake news story.

Was it really? I think a fake news story as one put out by those web sites that are just gathering hits - intentionally false click bait, like the one that said the Pope had endorsed Trump for president.

The pizzagate thing is just a conspiracy theory, and an especially stupid one at that. It’s completely pulled out of somebody’s ass. It makes the 9/11 Truthers look downright sane.

The “WTC inside job” idea is not fake news. The Apollo hoax idea is not fake news.

Why are they calling pizzagate fake news?

[Salvor]

@CurtC

I’ve been following this pizzagate thing for two or three weeks now, and since all the news stories have come out about the guy going into Comet with a gun, they all say that the pizzagate thing was a fake news story.

Was it really? I think a fake news story as one put out by those web sites that are just gathering hits - intentionally false click bait, like the one that said the Pope had endorsed Trump for president.

The pizzagate thing is just a conspiracy theory, and an especially stupid one at that. It’s completely pulled out of somebody’s ass. It makes the 9/11 Truthers look downright sane.

The “WTC inside job” idea is not fake news. The Apollo hoax idea is not fake news.

Why are they calling pizzagate fake news?

fake news is made up comspiracy put in news format, it’s part of a similar family in my view. But gods help us all if we have to have numerous different categories of these families of disinformation to keep track of it all.

[puddleglum]

@Salvor

I think that should be highlighted. Her shying away from media coverage, hyper attention to hiding email correspondence just fanned the flames of doubt and made the reality look far worse than what it was.

I am pretty convinced the primary reason Hillary had her own private email server, and deleted any emails was almost entirely to do with her not wanting her correspondence to be read by others and used against her in embarrassing ways. If she had just come out and said that, after decades in the public spotlight with numerous statements being used as weapons against her, it might have defanged much of the mystique over the issue. Not all by a long shot, the conservatives and alt right and Alex Jones types would have harpooned that whale unto death, but others?

I think one of the ways Trump defanged some of his controversies, even though he often LIED while doing it, was to give plausible reasons for his past bad behavior. Such a great business man even though he went bankrupt multiple times and has not paid federal taxes for years? He’s a “business” man taking advantage of the system like any business man would. He was like a submarine driving head first into an oncoming missile before it was fully armed and deflating its power before the full payload could be brought to bare.

Hillary just trying to ignore it made her seem more guilty in some mysterious plot.

I think the age when that strategy was possible is gone, there are too many different avenues of information that can get out, twisted beyond all reasonable recognition, and the silence and refusal to take things head on strengthens the believably of some of the worst ideas and misrepresentations. NO one thought Sanders was lying about what he wanted, even people who thought his ideas were that of a fool still believed he thought they would make america a better place. His ideas and intentions were on his sleeve and collar.

Candor, honestly, genuineness, perhaps these are the only weapons we have left. My fear is I am not sure they will be enough, there are so many liars, some state sponsored agitprop from the father of lies, Putin, trying to undermine the legitimacy of American institutions.

Hillary could not come clean about the reasons she had her own email server because to do so would be admitting a crime. The reason she was not prosecuted was she was found not to have done it deliberately and only was found to be extremely careless. If she had admitted creating the email server and deleting emails strategically it means she was not merely careless but intentionally exposed classified materials. It might not mean much to the average voter but intent is a big deal when dealing with classified materials.

[Jackmannii]

I endorse the “point and laugh” approach.

[Ravenman]

@Jackmannii

I endorse the “point and laugh” approach.

Perhaps the patrons of Comet Ping Pong – the pizza place mentioned before – should have ridiculed the gunman instead of fleeing the premises?

[emcee2k]

@Jackmannii

I endorse the “point and laugh” approach.

We tried that with Trump. Now he’s going to be president.

[Novelty_Bobble]

I don’t have a solution nor any great advice other than to challenge what you can on the facts available, Use Sagans “baloney detection kit” on yourself and encourage others to do so, discard the bullshit and as puddlegum suggested, endure the rest.

Those that are amenable can be shown a different point of view but some are hopelessly lost and trapped by their own worldview and you can’t reason someone out of position that they didn’t reason themselves into.

And as regards fake news in general, I thinking thatChris Morris and Armando Iannucci were rather prescient in both form and content a scant 20+ years ago.