As did the Chielmenicki pogroms of 1648-49.
Zev Steinhardt
cmkeller made reference to something that I think a lot of people forget: that there was a State of Palestine right next to the State of Israel. They, along with Syria, Jordan, etc., immediately attacked Israel and got their butts kicked. The scraps of Palestine that weren’t conquered by Israel were annexed by Jordan and Egypt. As a result, I don’t have much pity for thet Palestinians. They gambled and lost.
As for why the US supports Israel, there are several reasons. Israel is the only democracy (ok, there may be arguments over second class status for some) in the region, and we have always championed liberty. Also, the strong Jewish lobby has convinced our leaders. And another group that many might not realize: the fundies like Falwell who believe that a Jewish nation is a key step in the beginning of The End, that is, the apocalypse and the Second Coming.
However, all this does not justify the Apartheid-ishness of Israel today.
I lived for two and a half years in Israel, primarily Jerusalem. When a friend linked me to this site and asked "How do you justify the existence of Israel, i responded:
Veni, Vidi, Vici.
Much of the land in the earlier part of the country was unoccupied, and when the European immigrants moved (“back?”) there, there was a large influx on Palestinians from the remainder of Palestine (the country we now quaintly refer to as “Jordan,” due to the river it is on the other side of the centre of the world from). It was much like settlements in say, Utah or Nevada would have been if they had been very large, didn’t really displace many people and started importing Apache who wanted to find construction jobs.
In 1947, England drew up the Balfour Declaration, which divided up much of what is now Israel (minus the West Bank and Gaza) into a four-part checkerboard, with opposite corners belonging to the Jews, and the other corners staying under Palestinian rule.
The Jews said “We’ll take it,” the Arabs said “No, you won’t,” and war broke out.
Beginning what would become a 50-year trend, the Jews won, hands down. They took the opposite corners of land as a combination of spoils of war/security zone.
In the '50s, seven or eight Arab countries declared war, invaded from all directions (except the Mediterranean), and got their asses kicked.
In '67, they tried again, and this time, rather than just beating the invading forces back, Israel also took (“liberated”) Jerusalem and the West Bank as a buffer zone to keep missiles from being launched from Palestine to the West Coast of Israel. Remember, before the W.B. was “occupied,” Israel was, at some points, only 6 1/2 miles from one end to the other. Damn near narrow enough to
lob hand grenades from one side to the other, and easily narrow enough to shell the coast with mortar fire. This war lasted only six days.
At the end of this war, every Palestinian in the newly occupied territories was offered full citizenship, including voting rights. But excluding the mandatory draft (Partially because Israel didn’t want to set brother against
brother, and partially because they didn’t TRUST brother against brother). The vast majority of Arabs rejected this without a second thought.
One of my closest friends when I was there was an Christian Arab/Israeli citizen whose father was the mayor of Bethlehem. Great woman. I would have dated her except for the fact that compared to Jew/Arab dating, Jungle Fever
looks as natural as a summercamp romance.
Then, in '73, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year, There was ANOTHER invasion. Despite the fact that they were fasting, the Jews won again.
So essentially, for four or five generations, the majority of occupants of that area have been Jews. For the past 52 years, they/we have managed to hold on to sovereignity against all odds. The existence is self-justifying. Israel
is there, therefore it is there.
And then there’s the Bible. Bear in mind, I don’t go for that “promised by God” stuff, but the it is an inescapable fact that the homeland has existed for 2500-3000 years as a homeland and the Jews are the only living culture who can honestly say “We were here first.” All other cultures before them have disappeared. And even if the bible isn’t a legal document, it is considered to be truth and law for over 75% of the western world.
Bear in mind, even though I have seen documentation on all of the information, it was filtered through Zionist propoganda and may well be nothing more than a one-sided interpretation of events. It is, however, my truth.
Ahh yes, I love how the media takes brutal dictators and turns them into great statesmen. One thing the Palestinians have got to stop doing is looking to brutal regimes for support.
As for baiting like this from John Corrado
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I’m not going to justify idiotic comments like that with a reasoned response.
Also in regards to this
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Hence the support for Iraq, Chile, Guatamala, Indonesia, etc. The united states couldn’t care less if Israel was a millitary dictatorship that converted murdered babies into a new energy source. As long as it furthers the US’s interests it gets support.
Blessedwolf:
Some minor corrections:
Actually, that was the U. N. Partition plan. The Balfour Declaration was a 1922 British document which stated, “His MAjesty looks favorably on the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine…”
I believe what yo’re referring to here is the war of 1948. It was six Arab countries. The only war Israel engaged in was the Suez conflict, which was only with Egypt.
Let’s not exaggerate here; it’s not like the Jews won on Yom Kippur itself.
Chaim Mattis Keller
CMK: My bad. I forgot to mention that I had to go into so serious regressive memory to recall as much information as I did, and since I initially responded to a friend who didn’t know any better…
Hell, I’m lucky I remembered as much as I did!
But thanks for clarifying that for me and the others
Yikes! please ignore my typos above, and amend the line
to read
Chaim Mattis Keller
There ya go. To the victor go the spoils. I find it amazing that one can deny the right of Israel to exist when the entire history of the world is the strong taking what they can from the weak.
The Jews have a much better historical claim on the territory than residents of most other nations. Even excluding the religious claim, their claim sure holds a hell of a lot more water than the laughable US doctrine of manifest destiny.
Welcome to the SDMB, blessedwolf.
Thanx for the welcome Andy.
One question: Who’s Victor, and why is he spoiled? Two! Two Questions. Who’s Victor, why is he spoiled, and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.
But I digress.
Actually, there have been other groups (primarily political forces, not religious) who had lived in that region longer. But I still can’t convince myself that their claims are any more valid than the Jews. Less so, in fact, because there’s nobody left to speak for them.
I don’t necessarily agree with our reasons in these cases, but the US supported these countries because they supported “democracy” or opposed Communism/other nefarious plots against national security. Maybe you could explain how supporting Israel furthers our national interest. Since a lot of our oil comes from enemies of Israel, it doesn’t seem logical, does it?
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Well, that is a lot different from what you originally said. Supporting countries that support our interests is quite common. Of course, sometimes they did nothing further than give free reign to American businesses. But, that’s another story.
Well, who wouldn’t want a military base in a hostile country. Israel acts as Americas attack dog in the middle east. the other countries can’t be relied on to do that, their people hate American imperialism too much.
Blessedwolf; Welcome to the SDMB, zev#2.
Hey, Oldscratch used ME as a 'source".
And, Varlos, you did not dispute that I am considered to be a “theologian”, so I guess you agree that “Might makes right” is A moral justification. (Altho not a very good one)
Okay, Oldscratch; I’ve figured out how your mind works, and I am no longer offended by your rhetoric. You have nothing personal against Israel and Israelis, at least nothing more than you have against the rest of the Western, Capitalist world. You see us as one of your many enemies, and you’re attacking us because we happen to be the subject at hand. That’s fine - I can accept that. You may see us as the enemy, but that view derives from ideology and idealism, not hatered and prejudice. I can respect that.
Still, I think you owe me an apology. Your remark “When Israel is gone, I will be happy” hurt me deeply - by implying that you would enjoy the death of Israel, you imply that you would enjoy my death. I believe that it may be assumed that a man would die rather than let his nation fall, and let his family come to harm, so from your remark I understand that you would take pleasure in someone killing me. I can accept the fact that someone wants me dead, in general - at this moment, I believe that a few million arabs, several thousand skinheads and perhaps some aging central Europeans would like to kill me. But to have someone I’ve spoken to, who I can adress by a name of sorts, whose face I have seen… to have this person want to experience my demise is disconcerting and deeply troubling.
So please - apologize for that one sentence and we can go on with disproving the existance of God and hitting on Techchick. Apologize, if only because it’s my 26th birthday and I wish to go to sleep with a quiet heart.
Josh F.,
Haifa, Israel
Alessian: after this post you want someone to apologize to YOU?!? After calling several of my fellow religous experts here, “My Jewish brethren”, not to mention being on your side in this debate, I take a tiny bit of exception to being called a “gentile bastard”. I wish my hebrew dictionary had curse words, now. Would somebody do me the honors?
cmkeller said:
Actually the Balfour Declaration (in 1917, not 1922) said His Majesty’s Government looked with favor on the creation of a national home for the Jewish people. It quite deliberately did not say anything about statehood. Further, it said "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. In other words, Britain was only promising to help Jewish settlement- not promising the Jews a state in Palestine, and certainly not intending to deprive the Palestinians of the land.
I do believe that the founding of the State of Israel involved a great injustice to the Palestinians- but that does not mean I am questioning Israel’s present existence, or its right to defend itself. An injustice was done in 1948, but there is no way to undo it today without committing another injustice at least as great as the first. And I would be hardpressed to name another state whose founding did not involve some injust along the line.
I found some on my own: “nabal, evil, ksil, and Chacham B’ einav”. Sheesh.
Daniel: Try “Ben-zona, debil, dafuk, idiot (pronounced eed-YOTE”. Your insults were the Hebrew equivalent of “villain” and “curs’d rougue”.
That little Blood Fable got me all riled up. I’m sorry. Really. Can you forgive me (this being my birthday and all)?
OK, but my dictionary is good for BIBLICAL hebrew, thus I was using the language of Proverbs. Did not know it was that obsolete. But just this once. 
However, see Prov29:9, I should have kept my peace.
To go back a little way, on the topic of comparing Israel to the means of creation of the US, Britain, etc.
This pretty much sums up my opinion–for all the nations. My guess is that it applies for oldscratch as well, but I won’t put words in his mouth:
“Look at all we’ve won with a saber and a gun/
and tell me if it’s worth it all”
–Phil Ochs
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Funny, I thought Rusalka was criticizing Israel, not Jews.
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How far are you willing to take this? I mean, you object to the idea that Israel would create an anti-gentile weapon, but isn’t that part and parcel of assuring the continued existence of the Jewish people?
What if someone is, say, drowning, and you have to risk your life to rescue them. Do you do it, or does self-preservation come first?
How do you define “the Jewish people”, anyway?
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Funny, I thought Rusalka was the bigot here. Remember? The person who criticised Israel?
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Do you feel that South African Blacks should re-institute Apartheid in reverse?
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“No! It is Kull- Kull is King! Kull shall wear my crown! Wear it well, Kull! HAHAHA!”
I hope you enjoy those nukes, guys- the US and USSR sure did!
-Ben