Umm, ben, he already apologized for those remarks, give him a break, OK?
Ok, I suppose this thread is a bad place to bring this up, but that “we were here first” thing caught my attention…
If you believe the Bible and the presumably exagerated numbers of the Old Testament, wasn’t that homeland created through wholesale genocide? The other cultures hardly just “disappeared”…
Of course, the numbers and claims were probably pretty much all ancient political boosterism, but I’d have to say that pretty much puts their claim to Israel on the same grounds as the U.S.’ Manifest Destiny.
Is there any chance that we could dig up a few Amalekites?
Let’s suppose that all the Jews in the world were killed off. A thousand years later, Judaism is revived as a religion. Do those people have a right to Israel, or are they not real Jews?
Because if they aren’t real Jews, the idea of preserving the “Jewish people” seems very racial. And if they are real Jews, then if people convert to Amalekitism, they should have the right to take back Israel.
-Ben
If I rant about how much I hate “Black bastards,” and I say aw, gee, it’s my birthday, won’t you forgive me, how do you respond? Sure, he apologized, but he’s also a bigot, and he’s done nothing to demonstrate otherwise. Maybe if he learns to act nice, I’ll think nicer of him.
Anyway, I asked some legitimate questions, and I’d like to know how he answers them. I mean, if he’s so worried about defending the Jewish people against G.B.'s, why not make an anti-gentile plague?
-Ben
Ben: I think he deserves a break on this one. I mean, I laughed at matzos with the blood of gentiles (not that I have any desire to have my blood made into bread/cracker stuff).
He apologized–I think in this case, that’s enough. I mean, the thread is sort of directed at questioning his country’s right to exist. I can imagine that hitting a little close to home.
I’d like to point out that two wrongs don’t make a right - that is, if other states have gotten established by oppressing others, it doesn’t mean you should repeat that pattern and feel morally justified.
The idea of creating a virus with the purpose of infecting an ethnic minority is disgusting. How do you feel about israel’s involvement in this?
And finally, what is wrong with having a secular state with equal citizenship rights regardless of your race or religion? Lots of countries exist this way. If the jews are truly in the majority in israel, there would be nothing to fear if they had a secular state.
Hm. We, as spiritual bretheren of our Amalekite ancestors, and honorers of Baal and his Asherah, demand the return of our homeland from these worshipers of Yahweh and his Asherah. We will allow non-Amalekites access to and worship in our lands.
Well, this sure has mutated into the Thread from Hell, hasn’t it?
As I said before, by questioning the existance of my country, you question my existance. I feel like I have to justify my right to live, and you know - that’s not a pleasent feeling. I’m sorry if I lashed out too much in self defence, but it’s hard to keep you equilibrum in front of people who want you dead.
To the one who asked: yes I would save someone from drowning. It’s the moral thing to do. But let me ask you this - if your city was under the throes of natural disaster, would you rush in to save your family first, or would you drive out with the first people you met on the side of the street? I see Jews as a tribe, a clan, an extende family with their own unique customs and faiths. If I were a member of the Navajo noation, would you think any differently? You probably would. I love humanity - generally - but I love my family most of all. By self preservation I mean preservation of my loved ones.
Announce it it all four corners of the land: Israel is a flawed nation. We were founded on bloodshed, and our hands have never been completely clean. We have been guilty of intolerence, extremism, ignorance, insensability. We have chosen realpolitik over ethics, and we have acted without forsight. We have an imperfect system of government, an imperfect legislative body, an over-practical military. We have had leaders who were narrow minded, self centered, dogmatic and just plain obtuse. We argue among ourselves incessinglessly, and we cannot agree upon the future.
We are a nation populated by human beings, trying to find the right path and all-too-often failing. I apologize for that.
The Ottomans (Romans) kicked most of the Serbs (Jews) out of Kosovo (Palestine) after which the the Albanians and Muslim converts (Palestinians) took over. Much later, the Serbs (Jews) came back and had the cultural history, political and military power to take over.
Did Isreal support the Serbian position in Kosovo? Seems like there was a precedent for it.
The best justification I have read here was that the Jews have no where else to go. That is more than sufficient justification. I am just resentful that the US has to pay for this and in the process piss-off 20% of the world’s population.
I think that lots of people on both sides of this argument need to do a little research. This is the Straight Doope people!!!
First off, as I have stated twice before, CKDextHavn is not telling the whole truth.
QUOTE:
Most Palestinians are refugees because they sided with the Arab states in thinking they could drive the Jews into the sea. They lost. The Palestinians who stayed in their homes and became Israeli citizens have (by and large) prospered. Those who fled to Jordan in hopes of killing the Jews and getting all their wealth, are still in refugee camps.
This is so ridiculously unbalanced that I am having a hard time controlling myself right now. Many Palestinan Arabs were anti-Jewish and particpated in the conflict on the side of the Arab forces. But what CKDextHavn forgets to mention is that 1000s of Palesitnians who wanted nothing more than to live in peace and could give two shits and a piss about who controlled where as long as their crops came through were driven from their land by the Israeli “Empty Land” policy.
Secondly…
I thought this was a place where logic and factual accuracy was important! Blessedwolf posted some things that were just not accurate. AS much as I want to welcome somebody itno the fold, let’s not congratulate him on in the face of blatant inaccuracy. IMHO if one is going to enter into such a charged discussion the very LEAST one can do is to get dates/names correct.
I find it discouraging that their is very little reflection on the Pro-Israel side. Many seem to have adopted the attitude of “Well, I know that you may not like what we’re doing and it may be wrong, but I don’t care.”
I also find it equally discouraging that the lone voice of dissent (oldscratch) is inspired not such much his interest in the particular issue, but rather by his broader ideological interests. There is nothing wrong with this, but it would be more interesting to see people with an interest in this specific issue chime in.
Couple of remarks by Alessan (happy belated birthday BTW!) gave me pause.
“…by implying that you would enjoy the death of Israel, you imply that you would enjoy my death. I believe that it may be assumed that a man would die rather than let his nation fall, and let his family come to harm, …”
“…questioning the existance of my country, you question my existance.”
These suggest to me a reason I, and perhaps other “westerners” may have difficulty with Alessan’s position. Although I am very happy with the life I lead in the U.S., I would not necessarily agree with Alessan’s position of “My country, right or wrong.” Actually, I believe he might simply say “My country”, cause I’m not sure what it would take for him to concede that his country was anything other than right.
Having said I enjoy my American life, I can also imagine living in many if not most other developed countries. I would, however, have some difficulty living in any country that had a state religion. Hell, I can’t even imagine moving to Utah. So I’d be as unhappy in Israel as I would in Iraq. (Well, maybe not as unhappy, but many of the same things would bother me about both countries.) Of course, if I was born in such a country, perhaps I wouldn’t know any better.
If my country were in imminent danger of being taken over, I cannot say with certainty that I would necessarily go down with the ship. Can anyone provide an historical example where a country was taken over and the entire population was exterminated. Of course, if every citizen considers him/herself a warrior obligated to defend the country to the death of the last … Seems to me some Jews today lead reasonably fulfilling lives in countries other than Isreael. Not sure why the current Israelis could not do the same (acknowledging that that might not be their preference, and not intending to propose that they should be required to do so.)
Tangent, living today, in a militarily strong country, this isn’t something I see the need to worry about. Of course, I do not live in a religiously/culturally strident nation made primarily up of recent immigrants with wholly artificial boundries plopped down in the midst of people who resent our being there. At the very least, Israel can adopt MAD as a defense policy.
I can look back and say, “Gee, my ancestors really dicked over the natives” and “manifest destiny sure came in handy”, and question my or my country’s right to criticize efforts of present day states towards expansion or genocide. I guess I might have fewer doubts, both personally and as a citizen, if I believed my country existed by divine right (backed by some nifty weaponry), and if I were sure my philosophy were right and everyone else were wrong.
That brings up the thought (hope) that as time passes, religion may be recognized as increasingly anachronistic, and state theologies may weaken. That, of course, is when the Jewish people can play the “culture” card. Nice to be able to have both arguments to use, depending upon the situation.
Hey Alessan. I can see how you took that remark the wrong way. It was a little over the top, although no more so than any of yours.
I am sorry. As you probably figured out, it’s not anything against Jews. In fact I believe that Jews religious and non-religous have a right to live there. It is simply the way in which the state of Israel is formed. We probably won’t agree. I do understand where you are coming from, and I understand your anger. I think it’s misplaced somewhat. Just as I feel that the palestinians anger is misplaced. So here you have it, an apology.
And happy 26th birthday.
Actually you have it wrong. this is of specific interest to me. If it wasn’t I wouldn’t be participating. I’ve travelled through the Middle East before, Iran, Israel, Syria, and Egypt.
I have relatives who live in Iran if you must know.
Allesan said:
As I said before, by questioning the existance of my country, you question my existance. I feel like I have to justify my right to live, and you know - that’s not a pleasent feeling. I’m sorry if I lashed out too much in self defence, but it’s hard to keep you equilibrum in front of people who want you dead.
Whoa there!
Since when does country = individual?? Since when does country = life?
I don’t feel like my fortunes are bound up in my country, why do you? While I like the U.S. where I was born and raised, I do not identify myself with it. If the U.S. government does something morally reprehensible, I feel a lot of anger. I am not above leaving and moving somewhere else if it gets too bad. I am not overly worried about not having a “homeland” and I’m not patriotic, because we are all individuals, and should trust our own moral compasses, not some artificial organization. “Country” is not important, your self and your family is. Members of my own family were refugees from another place where they lost everything. They came here and started from scratch. What’s the difference where you make your life, as long as it’s a good one?
That being said, I think I’d trust a democracy like the U.S. with my fortunes long before I’d trust a religious state like Israel. It seems religious states are a lot less tolerant of “otherness” than western democracies. Isolating minority groups into discreet countries is NOT the answer to the world’s problems. Nationalism is an evil imho. Bigotry must be fought openly, not hidden behind national boundaries.
I still haven’t seen an answer to my “why not a secular state” question.
Some random reactions…
<< Of course, the numbers and claims were probably pretty much all ancient political boosterism, but I’d have to say that pretty much puts their claim to Israel on the same grounds as the U.S.’ Manifest Destiny. >>
The “numbers” are irrelevant. The Bible as document attests to Jewish occupation of the land since about 1200 BC. Archaeology shows Jewish occupation back to around 1000 BC. Whether there were 10,000 or 1,000,000, there were Jews/Israelites living continuously in the land for at least 3,000 years.
Briefly, on the accusation that I oversimplified my statement of where the Palestinian refugees came from – yes, of course. I wanted to write a few paragraphs, not a encyclopedia; and I don’t believe I ever said “ALL” Palestinians (or ALL Jews) did such-and-so. I focused on a very large majority. Yes, I generalized. Yes, I oversimplified. Live with it. I make my point with the 75% majority of Palestinian refugees, not with the 5% minority.
And I repeat, there are many Palestinians living in Israel as Israeli citizens, enjoying equal rights under Israeli law (with the exception of being exempted from mandatory service in the Israeli armed forces.)
Is there some prejudice against those Arab Israelis? Sure, in every society, there are some individuals with racial, ethnic, religious, gender, etc prejudices. Heavens above, you gonna tell me that no one in the U.S. has any prejudices??
But the difference between Apartheid and Israel is that apartheid was Law. It irks me that any racial prejudice is compared to apartheid, just as it irks me that any trivial infringment of rights is compared to Nazi Germany. There may be prejudices in Israel, as in America, but there are laws requiring equal rights in both countries. It is NOT official government policy to target any particular minority group. (BTW, please note that through the years, the Jews HAVE been the targets of official government policies – pogroms, Holocaust, etc.)
Israel is put, and puts herself, under more moral scrutiny than any other nation in the world. Alessan’s mea culpa – or {i]al khayt* – is a good example. Israel tries to hold herself to the highest ethical standard. She fails, sometimes; but she tries. Israel agonizes over those failures. Army personnel found guilty of excess violence against civilians are tried and punished; that was NEVER true of the Arab military personnel who committed excess violence against the Jews.
Look at all the press over the plight of the Palestinians. Where is the press over the plight of the Kurds? of the Jews in Iran or Syria? of the persecuted minorities (including the Palestinians) in the Arab countries? Not a word. Silence. Absolute. And yet, as noted above, the repression under the Arab monarchies and military dictatorships is far, far more severe than any minor misdoings in Israel. But Israel gets all the negative attention. Why? Because Israel has a free press (subject to national security items), and is willing to let the world in to see what happens… while the Arab nations have no such concerns, and are NOT willing to let the world see what happens in their countries.
Don’t forget that with the Kurds, you have the good Kurds and the bad Kurds. The good Kurds fight represive regimes like Iraq for their own country. The bad Kurds firght repressive regimes like Turkey for their own country. As anyone can see, there is a huge difference between these people. Obiously we must give support to the good Kurds and condemn the bad ones.
oldscratch, do you , in your personal life, ever have to treat jerks differently basd on whether they are “friends” (or allies, in some way) then you do other jerks. Obviously any person, or nation, who is not all-powerful, must take practical realities into consideration. It is not a contradiction if to the extent that practical matters do not interfere, one still tries to the best of one’s ability, to do the right thing.
Hey, Grendel. C’mere.
And he was corrected. And accepted the corrections. What’s your damage?
How gracious. :rolleyes:
Who did that? Two people welcomed him directly, one corrected him, no one “congratulated” anyone for anything.
Yup, no one comes here unless they already know everything there is to know, like you do, it seems.
Boo-frickin-hoo.
If you want to get all pissy with someone, make it me instead of blessedwolf. I solicited his input, as he is a nonreligious Jew who has actually lived in Israel. I found his perspective to be useful. I’m sorry you didn’t, but IMO historical details are somewhat less important in a discussion like this one than understanding the attitudes and emotions behind the opinions.
Don’t like it? Take it to the Pit, pally.
That’s not to say that historical details are unimportant, of course. Obviously they were.
I simply mean that blessedwolf was not trying to disseminate incorrect or misleading information. It ain’t like he was spinning history to suit his purposes.
Since Allesan said that that is how he feels. You disagree? Good for you. You want to know why you disagree? Or what you disagree upon? Or why most people would side with Allesan rather than you? Check it out:
You posted:
Boy, we sure could have used you in the trenches during WWI. :rolleyes:
You really don’t believe in the concept of patriotism? In the value of something larger than yourself?
Jews believe in something called HaKarat HaTov. It can be loosely translated as “appreciation.” I feel HaKarat HaTov for the US for the things it has provided for myself and my family, things like refuge, opportunity, safety, civil rights, protection from lawlessness, etc, etc, etc.
Allesan lives in a place where every citizen serves in the Armed Forces (with certain exceptions). This is a country where HaKarat HaTov is more than an idea… it is a way of life.
**
You’re generalizing, right? Or do you mean to imply that Israel is an intolerant state?