I was looking for this exact citation, which I used to have in paperback form. One comment that version included was something to the effect of, if you’re going to insist on “fordt” instead of “for-tay”, you’re going to have to pronounce the punctuation mark as “apostrof” instead of “apostrophe “, and so on. The overall tone as I recall it was “either way is technically acceptable, but one is more pedantic “.
Add me to the list of people (insofar as there appears to be a list) who choose not to use the word in speech because of a combination of (a) the confusion it engenders and (b) a disinclination to pronounce the word incorrectly to minimize that confusion. I use it in writing, of course.
I say for-tay because I studied french for years. I never studied italian.
I may as well post this in this thread.
Porsche is pronounced ‘POR-shuh’ (more or less). Having owned a couple, and having had German classes in high school and college, it grates when I hear people pronounce it ‘PORSH’. Let alone it’s German, and the ‘e’ is pronounced in German, it’s a guy’s name. Pronouncing it ‘PORCH’ is like pronouncing the cars named after Louis Chevrolet ‘chev-RAH-lett’ (hard ‘ch’ as in ‘cheese’).
For-tay, neesh, cash, rifle. That’s the way I learned 'em, and that’s the way I say 'em. This is the first I’ve heard of pronouncing it ‘fort’, and I consider “nitch” to be wrong, and I consider “riffle” and “rifle” to be related but separate words. (The former being how you shuffle a deck of cards, the latter being how you search through something.)
Though to be honest, when it comes to uncommon words it’s pretty much sheer chance whether or not I’ll pronounce them correctly. I learned much of my lexicon from books, and ones without pronunciation guides at that.
I think a lot of us here did.
We don’t have a uniform standard of anglicizing the pronunciation of words that originated in other languages. If you pronounce the borrowed word for existential fear as “ayyngst” and not as “ahhhhngst” you’re in no position to point fingers about fortay.
We don’t have a uniform standard for pronouncing anything else, so it would be inconsistent to be consistent in our pronunciation of adopted words.
I say FOR-tay and consider it to be correct. Because the meaning of the imported Italian musical term and the French derived term were so similar, they wound up merging into a single pronunciation.
What I’d be interested in knowing is at what point the word was actually pronounced a homonym of “fort.” I know it was originally imported as being spelled “fort,” but was it pronounced with that final T when it was only a sword term? Did it change over time, and that’s why the E got added?
Earliest source I have on hand is Century Dictionary, 1889, which gives one pronunciation (fort) but it allows that the word may be spelled forte or fort.
Before about 1961, dictionaries were very prescriptivist though, so I’m sure that the second syllable was being routinely pronounced as far back as the 1700s, when final e was added.
I say fort because it’s correct, and I’m a stickler for shit like that.
Aside: I just noticed that today is my cake day. Now I want cake!
So when you say you’re a stickler for shit like that, you mean that it’s your /ˈfɔr teɪ / ?
Note that both fort and forte would be one-syllable words in French. (forté would be two syllables.) I haven’t looked it up, but I might guess that the French added an -e to emphasize that the t wasn’t silent.
Aren’t fort and forte just masculine and feminine forms of the same adjective? Or am I misunderstanding your point? It’s true that the “t” is silent in the masculine, not in the feminine.
My point is that French spelling and pronunciation have changed a lot since the Norman Conquest, when a lot of mediaeval French words first entered English, so I don’t know what the exact sequence of events was.
Forte entered the English language as fort in the 1640s or thereabouts (a fencing term, I believe). It attained the meaning of one’s strong suit about 1680. By the late 1700s, the final e was added.
Note also that forté is not a word. You would have to say fortifié(e) (fortified). Anyway that refers to modern French. In Old French the “t” would (I guess) have been pronounced but the subjective masculine singular was forz, not fort (cf. Latin “fortis”/“fortem”). I mean the adjective, not the fortress or castle.
I can say for-tay, or I can say “It’s not my strong suit.” It depends on the audience.
Your forte would be more like being in your wheelhouse rather than within your bailiwick, which is more akin to within your jurisdiction or mandate.
Though, now that I look at the OED, it explains that the English form is supposed to be based on the feminine French adjective (like locale, morale, etc.)