In Sweden most people follow their own rules in roundabouts (which we have plenty of). Here it is popular to signal just as in a regular intersection, as in not at all when going straight through, etc. Many people change the signal prior to exiting too, giving some kind of hybrid system. However I have heard that this is not how you are supposed to do. When studying for my driver’s license I was taught to signal only when exiting the roundabout, which I think makes more sense. First of all, signalling left before entering the roundabout makes no sense in a roundabout that does not replace a simple 4-way intersection. Similarly, for somebody who does not know where you entered the roundabout, your signal usually makes no sense, since it depends on the point of entry.
I was taught to consider the roundabout as a separate road and follow the rules accordingly, which means that it makes no sense to signal left because you will turn right at the 3rd exit.
Funny how getting comfortable driving in Boston (especially East Boston. Christ) makes lots of terrible traffic patterns seem like not a big deal. I know there are some terrible terrible places to drive in the world. I’ve heard some bad things about the Middle East, about South Asian places, and I don’t think that I’d be comfortable driving there. But hell, I’ve been in the Caribbean and Costa Rica on narrow roads, on roads that have gaping sections missing (generously called potholes) on the sides of cliffs, dirt roads where ditches (generously called potholes) randomly appear. Never really felt worried about any of it.
That said, I fucking hate driving in Worcester. Those assholes do not fucking look anywhere but straight ahead, and most of the time not even there.
ETA: Oh, and now that rant’s over, I also signal just after the last exit that’s not mine. Seems an exercise in futility to signal when you approach the rotary as a) many of them are too big to see across b) many have more than 4 exits and c) most drivers wouldn’t pay attention to a signal that early, even if they could see it. I barely trust the people who are signaling just before their exit, let alone trust people to tell me what they’re going to to 25 seconds in advance.
I love roundabouts. They have lessened accidents and wait time at a lot of intersections here.
But then I have a decent amount of faith in whomever does the traffic lights, etc. I have regularly seen problem intersections being worked on, and different things tried, until they work better around here. I’m always kind of impressed…here you were bitching about that intersection a month ago, and they changed the timing of the lights slightly and suddenly it all works better.
I keep hearing how these new-fangled round-abouts that are the coming thing in other areas of the nation, and how they’re actually a traffic-safety boon.
And I cannot believe it.
Not only do I know Fresh Pond circle, I used to drive through the Concord Circle daily. Calling them bumper cars is too generous.
IMNSHO the biggest problem (aside from the whole Boston-driving, take-no-prisoners, devil-take-the-hindmost attitudes) is that prior to the standardization of national right of way rules, in Massachusetts, the cars entering the rotary had the right of way. This law was changed, on the books in the early 80s. Because so many people kept driving the way they were used to, and there was no concerted effort to enforce the new laws, whole generations of Massachusetts drivers are used to dealing with traffic that still behaves as though the old laws are in effect.
Don’t signal. Trust no one. Speed through. Never let them see you hesitate.
The problem is definitely with drivers not knowing how to use them, rather than with roundabouts themselves. In the UK, where I’m from, they’re common, people are used to them and they work well. Now I live in Greece and can only think of a handful of roundabouts anywhere near me. The one I drive through most commonly is a complete deathtrap, with people choosing right of way at random*.
*Whilst simultaneously crossing themselves, talking on a cell phone, lighting a cigarette and making an obscene gesture through the window.
Petrobey Mavromihalis, I agree that the drivers and the drivers’ attitudes are what make for whether the rotary, or roundabout, will work. The problem is, as I suggested in my post, that theory is often subverted by reality.
I’m quite frankly astounded that Anaamika is reporting such positive results from the things in a city so close to the NY-MA border. I really thought the lunacy of the Boston area madness was going to be more contagious.
No way. Boston is far from here - a 3-hour drive. When we cross the border, we’re entering the lovely little town of Lee, MA.
I’m not saying by any means we have perfect drivers here. What we have is a pretty good DOT, IMO.
No less than four traffic lights on my direct commute have been modified in the last three years and made the traffic flow better. That’s just on my route! What about other peoples?
Nah, what we get usually is the City drivers, driving like…well, City drivers, forgetting this is Upstate and we do things differently up here. And not many of them. The Catskills seem to discourage them, and if they come up, they come up via train.
Anyway, as I said, the three intersections that have been changed to roundabouts are much smoother now, especially at traffic time.
Three hour drive? What? You actually follow the speed limits?!?!?!
(shaking head) You’ll never make it in the big city with that attitude. Per Google that’s only a 169 mile drive - two hours and fifteen minutes, tops.
Oh. And City drivers? Pikers, the lot of them. I’ve stared down cabbies and bus drivers in the various NYC tunnel traffic lines. I learned in a harder school.
More seriously, I am probably letting my early experience with those things color my perceptions. It may not be a valid extrapolation - but I believe it’s a completely reasonable one for me to make, based on my experience.
Limited experience is entirely the problem, though. I’ve seen several people pulled over by cops at rotaries for speeding, but never any accidents. They’re common around here, though, and most people are used to them by the time they’re eighteen.
wfudan’s approach is the proper one, so far as we’re taught in driver’s ed. Signaling before your turn (preferably in between exits, not at the last possible second, though people do that too) alerts people entering the circle at the point just before your turn that you’ll be slowing in front of them, making them wait until you’re clear before coming on. I’m not sure how it could be confusing as long as no one forgets to turn off their right signal and has it on the whole time.
I think the problem you guys are having is the confusion between a traffic circle and a roundabout. I checked out the one you guys are talking about in Boston and it is NOT a roundabout. It isn’t a roundabout if it is possible to drive straight through without swerving.
Also on roundabouts, traffic yields to the left only. So once you’re in the circle you’ve got the right-away. That is one of the major problems with all of these traffic circles because on a lot of them you have to yield to traffic coming in which causes all kinds of confusion.
I urge you guys who are afraid of them to go there and educate yourself about them at wikipedia:
Everyone talks a lot about how crazy Boston drivers are. I’ve never driven there, but how do they compare to New Yorkers? I used to drive here for a job, so I’m pretty well adjusted. Is it just a different kind of chaos? Personally I find that New Yorkers aren’t necessarily rude drivers, and there is a good deal of order. Just don’t slow anyone down is the main thing. Is Boston just madness?
We’ve finally started getting more and more “modern” roundabouts. The one that I use most (but still infrequently) is just a pleasure to sail through. The first time or two that I used it did confused me though. Not because I didn’t know how they worked, but because I didn’t know which exit I wanted to get to my destination. Because I knew the rules and followed them, I ended up going the wrong way (not against traffic, just not the way I wanted to go).
Another one that I use is a new, standard traffic circle. It’s also a pleasure to use. It’s a rural area, and exists rather than a street light or stop sign, and is quite efficient. And then there are a couple more on not-heavily-trafficked suburban streets that I use from time to time.
When there’s heavy traffic, standard traffic circles suck. Luckily there aren’t any that I know of in Michigan at heavily trafficked places. On the other hand I run into them in Mexico all the bloody time.
On the other hand, if you have to have traffic lights, and it’s a boulevard, then nothing beats the Michigan left.
Judging from Boston traffic (and the Fresh Pond rotary of death along with Exit 17 off the Pike in Newton) the preferred method of signalling within a rotary involves use of your middle finger. Since these whirling vortices from hell force you to either drive like a jerk or sit there until midnight when traffic slows down, I would use your middle finger proudly and frequently to indicate that you’ll happily run over someone before yielding.
Some find that a preferred method of signalling is from within the cab of a Hummer.
Merkwurdigliebe, I think you’re missing something on the map. Here’s a link to the Concord Rotary - which is the younger, more docile, idiot step-brother of the madness that was Fresh Pond Circle. I think you’ll agree these are precisely what you’re talking about.
And I stand by my experience that Boston drivers and driving is worse than NYC.
I haven’t been back in two years, but I’m inclined to agree. NYC is just a “take no prisoners” type of attitude.
But, how much of the Boston crap is caused by the damn Big Dig and all of its things? I hate that blasted thing and I can’t imagine having to deal with it daily.
Well, my experience is mostly from when I was younger, when the Big Dig was just a pipe dream, and before I joined the Navy. Say, 1986-1990. I’ve been back a few times, but it never feels like anything has changed, it’s just with the Big Dig the construction is a more obvious obstacle. The attitudes of the drivers are more of the problem than the construction.
Then there are the problems that the Big Dig just cannot address: that many of the rights of way for the roads are unchanged from when they were laid out in horse and carriage days. And when you add on-street parking and the wider vehicles, a lot of roads off the arteries are one-way, and still very, very narrow. Which makes the city a maze to navigate.
Yup, them be roundabouts as far as I can see. What’s this talk of a roundabout that you can go through the middle of!
Agreed. But they do work really well if people (at a least a large majority) know how to use them and do it in the same way. Therefore the problem is with driver education. If someone introduced traffic lights in an area without telling people how to use them there would be chaos. Doesn’t mean the traffic lights are a bad idea.
As a postscript, driving goes much better for everyone when it’s viewed as a collaborative effort rather than an us against them thing. This goes for a lot of life, I reckon.
ETA Oh, and please call me Petros. Don’t know why I chose such an annoyingly long-to-type username.
I did a search for the word “straight” in this thread, and no one was talking about driving straight through anywhere in a roundabout in Boston. Someone mentioned people only look straight ahead, and that people are idiots even on straight roads, but the only mention of driving “straight through” is in reference to Australia, and I took that to mean wanting the exit directly accross from where you start.
As my previous post would indicate, I agree wholeheartedly with Otakuloki – Boston rotaries are and, as far as I know, always have been awful. It has nothing whatever to do with the Big Dig (almost all the rotaries are pretty far from the Dig) and everything to do with Boston attitudes. even without the old rule of “entering traffic has the right of way” business he mentioned, new drivers unfamiliar with ancient traffic laws are still taught that “the driver on the right has the right of way”, which, to a person entering the circle, means THEM.
Add to this the fact that some circles are incredibly tiny (and might not be recognized as rotaries to someone coming upon them for the first time), or the fact that, in the cases of some circles, drivers have ALWAYS treated traffic entering it from the major thoroughfare and exiting onto the continuation of that thoroughfare as essentially having the right of way, as if the circle didn’t exist (example: The Fellsway, route 28 in Malden). It’s a situation just waiting for trouble. Years before she met me, Pepper Mill had her car wrecked at one such rotary. And she wasn’t even living in the Boston area.
When I got to Scotland and Ireland I was floored to see people actually obeying the traffic laws at circles.
I am dead serious when I say that New York City is a breeze compared to Boston driving. I have driven both and there is no comparison between the two. After living in the Boston area for 10 years, I navigated Manhattan without a map in an SUV and it was stress free. Manhattan roads are built on a grid for god’s sake.
Boston has so many traffic and road oddities that it will blow your mind. Have you ever heard of an invisible left turn signal? I doubt it but we have them here. I have had many visitors so visibly shaken up by driving from Boston Logan to our house that I insist that they fly into Providence, RI or Manchester, NH now.
Boston has its own driving style which is an abomination. You have to physically block cars with your own and pray that the others will stop. Another bonus is that Boston allows cars to drive in the breakdown lane during rush hour. God forbid if you are truly broken down or if you make a legitimate exit onto another road. The body count builds.