But I don’t see how that justifies our current action taday.
I’m not trying to pick a fight here, I’m just trying to find an alternate viewpoint. I don’t profess to know all the answers, but I don’t feel the need to accept our current path of action.
I served time in the US Army during the Gulf War. Before that time I would have AGREED with what we are doing today. After seeing what war can do firsthand I simply cannot. That is all this whole forum is about for me…struggling to find answers that can al least start to move us away from this cyclic violence.
Then, er, who is?
Cite, please? (I’m being serious, here, not trying to attack you in some backhanded way.)
obidiah, I’m having a hard time believing you posted this:
5000+ dead. Let’s see that again: 5000+ DEAD.
You’ve completely lost my respect. Be off with you, troll.
obidiah, as info, the U.S. has already acknowledged that planes were being scrambled to shoot down the airliner that was hijacked and crashed in Pennsylvania on September 11. The point Broomstick was making (and about which you seem intent on being obtuse) was that this is the decision faced by a leader. You (as a leader) know three civilian planes have already been turned into guided missiles. You have approximately five minutes to determine if the fourth plane that has been hijacked is a part of this overall plan or if it’s a group that wants to go to Cuba. If you do nothing, or try to talk with them via radio, you might save the 44 people on board the plane by negotiation. On the other hand, while you’re negotiating, that plane might crash into the Sears Tower, or the Capitol Dome, or anyplace else, and thousands more lives could be lost. If you shoot down the plane, you kill 44 innocent people on board, but you potentially save thousands.
I understand your desire to end killing as a method of dealing with opposing viewpoints. But when the folks with the opposing viewpoint refuse to do anything BUT kill as a way to further their cause, it’s kinda difficult to have rational discourse.
Tranquilis,
Obviously I’m not a troll. Even a passing glance at my posts here and other places will reveal that. Just because my post count isn’t over 1500 and you disagree with me doesn’t mean my opinion is worth less than yours.
I’m am not concerned in the least with your “respect”. I’m not trying to be petty with this, Tranq, but I was never trying to gain your respect. I am only voicing one opinion. I don’t know how respect got into this. I value your comments and opinion and have enjoyed posting with you and others.
I mourn the loss of these innocent people. A good friend of mine lost her daughter and I lost my goddaughter in this henious attack. But to say that America is some poor victimized country is ignorant. That doesn’t make the looses any less significant or justify what happened.
racinchikki,
I will work on a cite, honest. Again, I would stress that “terrorism” is a subjective term. It depends from which side you are viewing it from. I really am trying to view it from neither side, or at least from the outside. That is why words like good, evil, bad, right, terrorism and truth are often difficult to use. What are these concepts? Just because I live in America, does that make what we do is right, just or good? It can be argued that many people in Afganistan consider us terrorists. (I don’t have a cite, this is just what I would think if I were in their shoes). So many people in this forum are taking my comments as a sort of pesonnal attack. They are nothing like that. I’m trying to sort all this out (as I have said too many times to count, yet is always ignored) The reasons I am questioning this (and other) wars has also been summarily ignored. I have been in a war (in terms of front line involvement) and seen the destruction not only of terrirtory, but in the lives of people. I have lost a 8 year old girl along with the thousands of others. Please don’t miscontrue my opinions and posts as callous or uncaring.
Not nobel prize work at all
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Between the evidence posted by PM Tony Blair on the number-10 site and the evidence collected over the last decade + we have more than enough evidence to convict Ladin.
Even Pakistan said it was convincing. -
They are ignoring 1.
-
They are ignoring 1, and refuse 2.
This sickens me.
We have buried the bodies of fathers, friends, siblings, mothers and children of our nation. We have been attacked by people whom hate us with a passion so great that the best hope for their next generation, their college students, their OWN CHILDREN believe that the greatest fate they could have is to die killing americans.
No we shouldn’t stoop to their levels and target those who are innocent. We are trying to do the best that we can. Our goal is to capture those responsible and to remove from power the government supporting those individuals. We try to do this at the same time those responsible are trying to have hundreds of millions rise against us to slaughter us. Their have shield themselves in the past with the bodies of women and children. Turned their very future into weapons to kill those they hate, with the promise of ever lasting paradise.
What should we have our soldiers do when they begin to encouter young boys, 12 or 13 who should be at school or playing with friends, with rifles? What should we do when we watch their children start to kill the sons and daughters of our nation who are fighting for what they believe in? Its morally wrong to kill children. But what if the child wants to kill you?
Many of you don’t understand a simple truth of the world. A nation is a people. To be a people you must be united by something. We are America, we are united by a common culture and by a common bond of living, working, hateing and loving together for generations. We have to make a decision of who is more important. For those of us who have a working understanding of what happens outside of our borders this decision has already been made.
My family is important, my friends and their family. This circle continues, it encompasses all of us who live in this country. All of us are different; be it race, religion, values, whatever. But we are all united in that this attack was an attack on us all. We have buried our dead, as we have buried our dead since our nation was founded. They have joined the legions of dead, mourned by the survivors.
What people fail to grasp astounds me. A nation must exist that protects its citizens. We understand that. However what happens when it fails in its duty to protect its citizens. One of two things it seems. Either the nation can make it known with political and military will that there will be consequences for these actions. Our course is conservative compaired to many we only want those responsible out of power. Or we acknowledge the point. We can ‘turn the other cheek’ and admit whatever your grievence is a few thousand of our fathers, mothers, children or friends is an acceptable way of making your point.
If we do nothing, how long do you think it will be before the next time you open the door to your house there will be someone outside who wants to kill your family to make his point.
I wish people would read. Read the documents that attempted to capture the spirit that would be our nation. Documents that forged 200 years of a nation. We haven’t been right, we’ve made many mistakes but we’re trying. If nothing, things are slowly getting better.
People should read the word of the men and women who have fought for our nation. Try to understand them as they try to understand who and why they are fighting. Many of them come to realise that in the end they are fighting for their friends and the people next to them. No matter what happens, no matter how desperate the situation, no matter how certain they know that the next moment will be their last they find one simple thing. You fight to protect those around you. We fight to protect our friends with us, and our friends and families at home.
I remember back to grade school, learning about the American Revolution. A picture in particular comes to mind. A flag or somethig. Its of a snake, cut into many pieces representing the fledgling nation. It says 'Don’t tred on me".
I think Heinlien said it best, and which I paraphrase. “How many people do you fight for?” … “One”
I felt that it was because we don’t know who that one is.
We have buried our dead, now we must make sure that other loved ones will be next.
I’m tired of this all. I wish people would shut the fuck up. Get down off your soap boxes and realize, your opinion isn’t important. My opinion isn’t important. None of our voices need to be heard. One voice has already been heard. The voice of those who died on airplanes, the voices of those who died trying to stop the terrorists, the voices of those died unsuspecting in the world trade towers on Sep 11.
I want to fight for one reason.
I’m scared.
I’m scared that the voices of my loved ones who have survived will join those of the dead.
I’m scared that the voices of your loved ones will join the voices of the dead.
That is what makes us a nation, a people.
Fuck it
CRorex, I have fought for our nation and have been through this conflicting struggle of for who and why I was fighting. Can you listen to me for a moment?
I understand your frustration and fear. God knows I do.
racinchikki,
An example of confederate “terrorism”:
from CAPT. JOHN P. GATEWOOD’S CONFEDERATE GUERRILLA BAND
Again, my point wasn’t so much about this. It was more about how “terrorism” is subjective and the difinition can change radically depending on how you look at it. A lot of people seem to take it as an absolute term.
CAPT. JOHN P. GATEWOOD’S CONFEDERATE GUERRILLA BAND should not be confused with the Riverbottom Nightmare Band
Well, gee, this thread bled all over the place, didn’t it? May I post something relevant to the OP?
I’m going to try to link this photograph, which includes this caption:
*On Capitol Hill, Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.), a critic of U.S. policy in Afghanistan, points out the physical similarities between an unexploded U.S. cluster bomb packet, left, and a U.S. air-dropped food ration, during a House International Relations subcommittee hearing on the war in Afghanistan. *
Should that fail, you can go here, click “enter,” and jump to the fifth photograph.
Well, look at that, it’s John Corrado’s pal Cynthia McKinney! And she’s holding a cluster bomb in Congress!
Or is she?
Well, the photo from Sofa King seems to put paid to this thread. “Avoid the round ones, Abdul, they blow up!”
I’m not so sure of that, Sauron. The “food packet” McKinney’s holding up seems to differ in size and shape from the ones depicted in the CNN article cited in the OP, and the “bomblet” doesn’t much resemble the illustrations offered elsewhere in this thread.
Plus, I’m certain that’s not a real, live bomblet.
So what are those things? Models? Training devices? A can of Milwaukee’s Best and a Personal Pan Pizza wrapped in yellow construction paper? I don’t know, but now I’m interested in finding out.
During today’s Pentagon briefing, Donald Rumsfeld said that the food packets would be changed to a different color. His recollection was that they would be blue in the future.
We are also dropping leaflets warning the Afgans to stay away from the unexploded “bomblets”.
Gotcha, Sofa King. If that’s the case, though, McKinney is being a little fast and loose with her “facts” as regards her criticisms. I mean, if you’re gonna claim that the two items look similar, then don’t bring as examples something other than the two items.
I mean, I could state that the average person has a hard time differentiating between an Asian and an African elephant, and show clay models of the two animals done by a five-year-old as proof. Kinda disengenous there.
It’s a bullshit publicity ploy. Look at the objects she’s holding up. On the rectangular object, you can clearly see the folds where the wrapping paper was tucked under. Here is a real food packet. Note the difference? Not only is the real one covered in writing but it’s also significantly larger. It appears our dear Congresswoman has had a staffer apply a nice piece of wrapping paper to a paperback book.
Now look at the cylinder she’s holding. Looks suspiciously like the wrapping paper trick again, only this time applied to a soda can. At the top of this page is a picture of CB submunitions in action. These are the BLU-97 submunitions that everyone is so exercised over. Look just above the ZSU-23 and you’ll see one, and there’s another near the lower right corner. Here’s a closer look at one. Now how in the hell are you going to mistake this for a food packet? And who the fuck does McKinney think she’s fooling with her little stunt?
[quote]
originally posted by SofaKing
Well, gee, this thread bled all over the place, didn’t it? May I post something relevant to the OP?
Thank you for getting this back on target, so to speak.
Nothing to add, but I just wanted to say that I think Broomstick has posted some of the most eloquent defenses of the actions in Afghanistan that I have seen to date. Good work.
-Rob
Ok, so now we have 2 types of food packet, blue and yellow. We also have yellow bomblets.
Is it just me or does this seem cruel? They finally figured out what they can eat and what will explode then we change the colour scheme on them.
Why not just label one ‘food’ and put a picture of a person eating the packet. And on the other put bomb and a picture of the packet eating a person.
No wonder the world hates us, America is like that crazy aunt who at Xmas always does some wierd ass wrapping on the presents and forgets which one goes to who.
Btw, on the war vs stupidity we should drill a large hole to the center of the earth and pack it full of atomic weapons and let Stephen Hawking blow us all to hell. At least then I’d get some peace and quiet at night!
You know what? It ain’t our job to feed the Afghan people. If the food situation there is extreme (and it apparently is), their government should be doing something about it. But apparently they’re too busy supporting a terrorist network and trying to force their values on other countries to meddle with some piddly problems like their citizens starving to death.
The Afghan people deserve better than this, and the U.S. (along with the other allied nations) is trying to do something about it. To my knowledge, this type of aid hasn’t been given to an adversary since the Berlin Air Lift (obviously a different type of “war,” but you get my point).
I’m not sure what purpose it serves to denigrate the attempt to help the Afghan people. Seems to me to be an extremely noble gesture.
Ok, I think we all learned a very valuable lesson today.
Next time you see something amuzingly ironic that our government does: KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.
I can’t believe I wasted my life on parts of this thread.
I’VE LOST 10 MINUTES OF MY LIFE AND I WANT THEM BACK! wahhha!