Actually, it’s far more insidious than that. As niblet mentioned, Mexicans simply can’t get tourist visas, but any ol’ Irish lad or lass can get one, even though it’s common knowledge that Boston and NYC are awash in illegal Irish immigrants.
Not to mention all the student visa overstays. No one assumes someone from India or China or Romania or Canada is here illegally, but they are.
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.
Like I said, illegal immigration is not on my radar as an issue, although I live in the most diverse county in the United States and I probably see dozens of illegal immigrants every day from all over the world. You don’t hear people complain about it much around here either. A very few people don’t like to hear languages other than English spoken in America, but that’s about it. And I didn’t want to just assume everybody in Arizona who likes this new law is a dummy who doesn’t like the sound of Spanish. I mean it’s easy for me to sit up here and go “Ha ha, stupid rednecks!” but I wanted to try to see it from the average Southwesterner’s point of view. So I’m glad so many of you took it seriously and resisted the attempt to turn this into a discussion about what part of speech “illegal” is.
Back in 1860, we fought a war that ended slavery. The treatment of illegals today is slavery on a modern scale.
And let’s not forget about the diseases and drugs they bring across the border with them.
This is an issue, of course, in which it’s very easy to assume that the people supporting the illegal aliens are idealists and progressives, while the ones opposing them are rednecks and racists.
So… was Cesar Chavez a racist? Was he a bigot who hated brown skin?
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2006/feb/27/00011/
If we stopped thinking of illegal aliens as “Mexicans” and started thinking of them as “scabs,” would (y)our attitudes change?
Is it truly progressive to side with big agribusiness rather than with the blue-collar Latinos who were born here (who are, after all, the people hurt most by an influx of unskilled labor).
What diseases specifically? I really loved the whole swine flu histeria that was blamed on us. What other exagerrated threat have you come up with now?
I believe that it was very recently mentioned that we should stop thinking of illegal aliens as “Mexicans”, since so very many of them aren’t. Nobody seems to get terribly het up about the Chinese kids on expired student visas though.
Understanding the push/pull factors that drive illegal immigration is not being pro-illegal immigration. What I’m for is a strong middle class in Mexico so that Mexican citizens don’t have to come here to feed their families. I know that’s far, far away if it’s possible at all. I’m anti-exploitation of anyone. Everyone knows that business benefits from the gigantic loop hole in the immigration law that allows businesses to hire undocumented workers with a wink and a nod. I’m anti-business that create the demand for cheap labor by not paying an acceptable wage for crappy work. I’m anti-selfish American consumers that drive this demand also by demanding cheap everything, cheap food, cheap rent, cheap lawn services, cheap construction, cheap nannies. I’m anti-racist xenophobes who can’t even look at the facts and history and instead are driven by their fear.
Economics pushes Mexicans out of Mexico and pulls them into the US, but no one seems to ever consider this.
And mostly, I’m anti-whomever who expects, of all these people, that it is the immigrant that is expected to be ethical. That is it the immigrant who is the only one we expect to work against his self-interest. That it is the immigrant who we expect to enforce our law when we won’t enforce it ourselves. That is is the immigrant who we expect to solve this problem by “simply” going back from where he came from. None of us will look at reality and make some hard choices. It’s just easier to make the immigrant the boogey man.
Missed the edit window, but… you really think anyone here is ‘siding with big agribusiness’? Because I strongly suspect you won’t find anyone here who would be against making it harder and/or less profitable for big agribusiness to hire illegal immigrants.
Am I accusing, say, Bishop Roger Mahony of being in the pocket of agribusiness when he supports illegal aliens? Of COURSE not! Idealistic liberals have their own reasons for being sympathetic to illegal aliens. I merely note that, in supporting illegal aliens, Bishop Mahony IS, de facto, siding with the interests of agribusiness and working AGAINST the interests of native-born blue-collar Latinos. Bishop Mahony doesn’t WANT to be a stooge for big business, but by reflexively supporting illegal immigration, that’s precisely what he ends up being.
This is a hard issue to be pure on! As I said earlier, I’ve had illegal aliens (Irish ones) in my own family. My gut usually tells me to be sympathetic to immigrants. I have no doubt that, whether they’re legal or illegal, Irish or Mexican, brown-skinned or pale and freckled, MOST immigrants are decent people who just want to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families.
I also recognize that, among the anti-immigrant crowd, there are some genuine bigots. I don’t WANT to be on their side.
On the other hand, it’s NOT inherently unfair or racist to ask…
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Is it REALLY a good idea to allow millions of illegal aliens to work in the US when we have an unemployment rate hovering around 10%?
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When working-class Latinos who were born and raised in the USA are struggling, is it REALLY enlightened or progressive to allow millions of more unskilled laborers to enter the American market and drive down THEIR wages? Let’s face it- virtually ALL the good that Cesar Chavez once did in improving the lives of farm workers has been completely undone because of the flood of illegal aliens. Is it fair to hurt Latinos who are US citizens in order to accommodate illegals?
I don’t WANT to be on the side of the racists, but if I ask these questions, I might end up there. You may not WANT to be on the side of exploitative employers, but if you sympathize with illegal aliens, you may end up there.
As I said, it’s HARD for any decent, thinking, feeling person to stay pure here, and harder to avoid strange, unwanted bedfellows.
I happen to agree with you in one regard: I think it would be GREAT if businesses that hired illegal aliens were punished. But I also know (and you must know it too) that many liberals would oppose those kinds of punitive actions, claiming (not entirely without merit) that such sanctions would make business wary of hiring ANYONE with brown skin or a Spanish-sounding name.
How are we going to suddenly get rid of these illegal aliens now that we have 10% unemployment? How are we going to pay for it now that tax rolls are down? How does getting rid of illegal aliens make any dent at all in our unemployement numbers? I know a gal who works in PR that was out of work for a year. She, like pretty much 99.99999% of middle class workers, would never consider cleaning offices or picking lettuce even after a year of desperation. Illegal aliens, for the most part, are not even qualified to take the jobs that have been lost. (Excepting construction and manufacturing.) You think that all those lawyers and accountants and IT people and PR people and marketing people and teachers are demanding they be allowed to work in a meat packing plant?
As to your second point, that’s two seperate laws. Destroy the demand by destroying the incentive for the employer. Enforce the Employment and Anti-Discrimination laws.
Also, illegal immigrants actually are returning to Mexico, BTW. Mexico tracks and depends on money being sent back from the US and those numbers are down.
I have never ever met someone who was like, “Illegal immigration? You bet! I’m all for it! In fact, let’s bring in MORE illegal immigrants!” What I have met are people who see the humanity in the illegal immigrant and who understand why they are here and who don’t put all the blame on them as if they force us to hire them. (Because they’re so wiley, I guess.)
I’m currently unemployed and looking for work. While I doubt that there are many illegal aliens with my skillset applying to the same jobs I am, the presence of additional workers has a nonzero effect on the job market of which I am a part.
I would, if the pay was competitive. If I didn’t already have a temp job in an office, I’d go down and work day labor before I’d sit on my ass five days a week.
But employment is, to a certain degree, fungible. Absent illegal aliens, agriculture will have to hire people and pay a reasonable wage, and that ripple is felt throughout the job market. Someone who works as a janitor might well take one of those jobs in the fields if the pay was better; janitorial jobs thus must pay better to compete, and they now might be more appealing to someone who otherwise would work as a short-order cook. So short-order cook jobs must pay better … and on and on.
A laid-off copywriter might not want to pick fruit, but he could easily step down to receptionist job if the receptionist was instead parking cars, as she might be if the valet was picking fruit, which he might do if it paid a decent wage, which it would if there were no illegals.
Personally, I can’t tell them apart from legal citizens. Not until they start spouting off about their great Senators and how much they miss their stinking poutaine. But the Pens showed them!!
Why on earth would the receptionist park cars so that you can have her job, which is the ‘lowest’ you’re willing to go?
Is it really a good idea to take actions that will cause large price increases when the economy is doing so poorly?
Struggling is relative. A poor American is likely to be doing better than a poor Mexican. No amount of illegal immigration is likely to change that equation. I’d rather help a lot of Latinos a little, than a small number a large amount.
:dubious: Where did you get the idea that’s as low as I, personally, would go? I’d pick fruit if it was the best I could do. FWIW, I’m currently working a bit below the receptionist level, making about 40% of last year’s salary.
As to the hypothetical I posited, the idea was not that a receptionst would literally quit her job and go park cars, but that there would be greater liquidity in the job market, in general, and that while there is a seemingly huge gulf between copywriter and fruit-picker, the difference is not so great. A more realistic depiction of the job market’s fluidity would involve hundreds of people and jobs.
I believe you. But I don’t personally know anyone in my peer group who would (in my area for example) move down from a temp office job to a meat packing plant or cleaning toilets. Let’s be honest with ourselves here. When people’s lives improve, when they have education, when they have years of professional experience (like most? many? of the unemployed right now) the average person will not be taking a job away from an illegal immigrant.
Agree. But I was responding to the assertion that we can afford illegal immigration even less now that we have 10% unemployment. It’s going to have to get a ton worse before we see significant downward pressure in employment. IOW, before the professional classes put pressure on the secretaries who’d put pressure on the meat cutters who’d put pressure on the lettuce pickers. Does that make sense?
It’s not the illegals fault that picking lettuce does not pay a decent wage. The job is available because the farm owner either cannot or will not pay a wage that will draw a legal worker.