You seem to be awfully generous about the use of American blood and treasure to “win” the Iraq war. I suppose we could also bring out the nukes, if we were really serious about “winning”.
First, you have no evidence to support your belief that more troops and a larger military presense in Iraq would make things significantly better.
Second, I think you’re giving too little weight to the cost of the occupation. The United States is already feeling the strain. Any major increase in our presense would have a serious cost.
Third, even if everything you say is correct - so what? Do we owe Iraq something? I have nothing against Iraq and I wish them all the best but I don’t feel we have any obligation to sacrifice ourselves in their country. Four thousand Americans have died in Iraq. I see no reason to add another four thousand to that total.
The problem isn’t that we haven’t spent enough in Iraq. The problem is that we’ve already spent too much.
I imagine that is of little consolation to the Iraqis.
I certainly value Iraqi blood and treasure just as much. Judging from your “nukes” comment, you and your countrymen obviously do not. This is why the US will not win - the war was launched on the basis of fear and hatred. The Americans cared not a whit about the fate of Iraq or Iraqis and never have, and you need more than fear and hatred to slug it out in a counter-insurgency.
The recent troop surge seems to be having a generally positive effect. Beyond that, well, it’s a social science.
Again, I see little evidence of this.
I don’t know if this is a joke or not. DO you owe the Iraqis something? Look back at the last 5 years and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and you tell me with a straight face that you owe them nothing.
To be honest, I think Der Trihs gets flamed a lot because his description of America is a little too close to the truth.
Stop trying to make emotional appeals with no logic behind them. They’re not going to sway me.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed since 2003. Who do you think is responsible?
If the United States is responsible for those deaths then we should leave the country and stop the killing.
If the United States isn’t responsible for those deaths then what’s the obligation you’re claiming? Hundreds of thousands of people have died in other countries in the last five years. Do we owe them the same thing we owe Iraq?
This wasn’t really addressed to me, but I thought I’d answer some of them anyway:
Saddam. The Iraqi’s themselves, both those in power at the time, and those who have targeted their own people. Bush et al. The US government (including both the executive and legislature branches) as well as the US people. I could probably lay some blame on some others (the UN perhaps, several European nations), but I think the others are those mainly at fault and everyone else was pretty much a bit player by the time of the US invasion.
Sure. The problem being that I doubt anyone thinks that if the US leaves everything will be all goodness and light in Iraq…nor that the killing would magically stop. In fact, I think most people understand that if the US pulled out, even today, that the killing would only increase in intensity.
I’ll leave the other questions to the one they were directed at, especially the last one as it seems a silly stance to take.
-XT
You conveniently forgot about the part where you destroyed their country on completely false pretenses.
EDIT:Little Nemo, that is.
But I don’t see you making any credible or coherent case that the U.S. should “win” – nor even stating clearly that you think so.
It would help your case if you actually read your own links. It seems very odd to me that someone who apparently has so many great ideas on the subject could be unaware of the Malaya emergency being a classic example of how to successfully conduct a counter-insurgency campaign. You’t think that this excerpt from your link would have tipped you off:
This would lead me to believe that…
…since I can’t reach through the internet and MAKE you see it, I can only conclude that you also have no interest in honest discussion and any further effort on my part would be a waste of time.
I read it. You didn’t.
That’s nationalism vs. imperialism, not communism vs. democracy.
If we destroyed their country by our occupation then why should we give them more of the same?
No, I was pointing out the logical inconsistency of Throatwarbler’s position. He’s saying that the United States owes Iraq because of the occupation. But he wants to repay them by continuing and even expanding that same occupation. Which, if his premise is correct, would just increase our debt.
Most of the destruction would have occurred during the invasion. The remedy would be for the US to restore order, civil society and rebuild the infrastructure that was destroyed. So no, I am not advocating that you “give them more of the same”, a patently absurd notion. For example, if I break into your home, beat the snot out of you and burn your house down, your remedy, one would hope, should not stop at simply stopping me from continuing to beat you.
Nah, we’ve been down that road, spent a shitpile of money, lined the pockets of many a no-bid contractor, and have little to show for it.
America is not capable of rebuilding Iraq.
So you feel that all of the problems that are happening in Iraq now are just the aftereffects of the invasion that happened in 2003? Because when I open the newspaper, I read about people being killed today. Presumedly they’re not dying of wounds that were inflicting five years ago.
Then you should explain what it is you meant to say because that’s what you’ve been calling for so far in this thread. You wrote:
ie give them more of the same.
Has everything that has been destroyed by the US invasion already been rebuilt?
The apparent difference between you and me is that I believe that the US armed forces are generally a capable and professional organization, whose continued presence is vital for the reconstruction effort that the US is morally obligated to provide for, while you believe them to be nothing but thugs and bandits.
I suppose, in America, that might be a reasonable excuse to not pay back your mortgage, but in this case, pretty despicable.
Who said anything about not paying back a mortgage? Once we get out and stop fucking up the plumbing over there, we can send them money, with which they may hire contractors of their own choosing. Or they can squander our aid by using it for graft and incompetent builders. Whichever, it’ll then be their choice. I happen to think think that the Iraqi’s should have a choice as to what becomes of their country. Do you disagree?
So you are saying that if the US unilaterally pulls out, Iraq will turn into a peaceful, pluralist, liberal democracy all of its’ own accord?
That’s their choice, not ours.
“Choice” would imply free will and a lack of coercion, which would only be possible in a peaceful democracy.
A peaceful democracy is a prerequisite for choice making?
What did our cavemen ancestors do instead of making choices?
Not so. Revolution and civil war are also matters of choice.