How far does contempt of court go?

Unless the flag has tassels and the judge is wearing garters.

Within the confines of the court room that they are taken to maintain order in. Who do you think should be in charge of a courtroom?

You are going to be more specific.

I am sure that there have been judges that have abused their authority in this matter, but you do have the ability to appeal to a higher court, but really, unless you are actually treating the court with contempt in such a way as to prevent it from operating, it is very doubtful you will be found in contempt.

Put it this way, if someone goes into a business, and yells at the owner, telling the owner that they aren’t the one in charge, and that they want this and that, and won’t leave until they get what they want, and they are preventing the business from operating, do you think that there should be any sort of consequence for that?

If I can be charged for something outside of my original case for not buttoning up my shirt then I consider that to be a gross display of authoritarianism.

I understand the professional environment needed to create a constructive justice system, but judges have way too much power that isn’t being checked.
Edit: No I don’t agree with the specific video, but I also don’t agree with the judge instigating him to be in contempt of court. I don’t agree with anybody who works for the government that makes a situation bigger or worse than it has to be. Especially law enforcement, and judges.

Seeing how the guy in the video was uncooperative, what do you think the judge should have done in that case?

No, you probably can’t. But you can be charged for refusing to button it when the Judge asks you to.

Anyway, we want our judges to be authoritarian, the system pretty much depends on it.

If we want our judges to be authoritarians then they should be heavily checked. It should be much easier to say impeach a judge, or hold them accountable. I personally have known several judges who are what some would say corrupt, well maybe nepotism isn’t corruption since the judges opinion seems to overwrite the basic principles of what a court is intended to do. Which is obviously to settle issues between people, legally through the eyes of the law. Not subjectively input it’s opinion on whether an individual has carried themselves appropriately or not.

Judges are there to interpret the law and uphold justice, not create injustice or making situations worse by slapping people with heavier fines, and longer sentences because their feelings were hurt, or they felt disrespected, or felt the people in the court were being unruly.
If a person murders someone, that person can either get a few dozen years in jail, or executed. No person, or even group of people, should be able to decide based on their feelings that someone should have either 20 years or life. The crime should be punished according to the severity of the crime and ramifications of the crime, not peoples opinions or implicit bias towards that individual. Maybe I’m just delusional but I think that’s a huge problem in the court system. The law is ultimately the opinion of human beings, but how we uphold the law should not be up for debate. The ramifications of a crime should be considered, but even if someone killed millions of people they still should not be hit with the book just because nobody likes them. It’s unfair, it’s unjust, and it’s not right to allow people to make these kind of calls based on their own feelings. Especially when it comes to something outside of the original crimes committed, like contempt of court for example.

All that does is create injustice, like we see all the time. Rich college kid rapes a women behind a dumpster, ahh he’s just a young kid no reason to ruin his life. OH but if he’s black and raped a women behind a dumpster, that’s an atrocity and he should be charged as an adult and hit with the books.

I’d rather deteriorate the ability to judge the severity of a single crime committed than to allow such injustice to be committed simply because of someones inherit bias or opinion, or how they feel that day.

Not hold him in contempt of court and not have a back and fourth with him.

If he was actually screaming yelling, trying not to let the judge talk, then maybe it might have been reasonable to give him contempt of court for trying to keep the judge from speaking.

There will always be tension around how much discretion we give our judges Too much, and bad things happen. Too little, and different bad things happen. Believe me, I’ve been in front of my share of judges who are rude, arbitrary, or worse. (for some reason, many federal judges act like they hate their jobs, despite trying for decades to get appointed to the federal bench.) People should pay attention to the character and experience of people nominated or elected for judicial positions. That’s really our only hope to keep these problems to a minimum. It will never be perfect, but our judiciary is functioning quite well overall.

Contempt of court is the least of our worries. It’s rare, and (in my experience) rarely abused. I think judges by and large do a very good job of not letting their feelings get hurt, or letting their feelings effect their decisions.

I had one judge admonish me for not bringing my evidence to court … and warned me that next time he wouldn’t sign the judgement I needed … woot …

Oddly enough, the authorities act like authorities and once you’re in court you don’t get to act like a teenager rebelling against his parents. You either follow the law (which includes the orders given by a judge), or you get into worse trouble. Welcome to being an adult.

There are, but none for things like ‘stop talking’, ‘answer this question or state that you refuse to answer’, or ‘wear appropriate clothing’.

How exactly do you expect justice to work, without human beings to carry it out?

The court system is not a mechanical system. It is a bunch of people coming together to try to figure out what to do. Some of those people want one thing, others want another, and eventually some sort of decision about what should or should not be done has to be reached. Do we take this person and put him him jail? Do we take some of person A’s money and give it to person B? And that requires authority, human authority.

A judge is just a person that we agree has the authority to decide certain matters by certain criteria. We decide what authority the judge should have, and then the judge uses their authority in our name to adjudicate disputes. That’s what we call “legitimate authority”, because the judge didn’t install himself as judge, he wasn’t installed by invaders from Omicron Persei 8. We did it ourselves.

Can a judge abuse their authority? Of course, it happens regularly. And so we have people who review the judges decisions in various ways to try to keep the abuse down to a dull roar. Judges are sometimes elected, so one remedy is to not vote for them next time. Judges are sometimes appointed, so one remedy is for the appointing authority to not appoint them next time. Judges are subject to impeachment by the legislature. Judges’ decisions are reviewed by appellate courts. Judges are subject to criminal prosecution for egregious misbehavior. And so on and so on.

The only alternative to a judge being given authority in the courtroom is for someone else to exercise that authority. Who would that be? So we give the judge the authority, and subject that authority to review, and most times the judge does OK, and sometimes they don’t, and it’s up to us fallible human beings to try our best to correct that.

@Barack Obama:

I think you have a very mis-informed idea of how the world should work. There are places in our society where the individual simply does not have the right to act like a jerk. For various really good reasons, we allow Judges, Officers of the Law, Captains of ships and airplanes, and the like to have very strong authority over their domain. If the captain of an aircraft tells you to sit down and shut up, you had best do it; failure to do so can get you arrested and dragged off the plane, for example.

Courtrooms are “crucibles” in more than one way (this alludes to an idiom about the function of a court). People who appear in court are often not at their best. They are unhappy, because a courtroom is a place where conflict is resolved, and it isn’t always an easy process. They are upset, because they often face significant consequences should things not go their way. They are stressed, because they lack power or control over the situation (having had to yield that power to attorneys and judges). Left unchecked, bad behavior in a courtroom would render the ability to proceed impossible.

I have been in two different professions with authoritarian workplaces: attorney and teacher. As a teacher, I often wished for the decorum of the courtroom. However, the modern teacher has been instructed to be tolerant and gentle-handed when it comes to dealing with recalcitrant students, because that way we don’t have to punish them as often for their unwillingness to cede authority to adults, resulting in a higher success rate for completion of the process. But we cannot treat the courtroom the same way. And even I, as a teacher, had the power to hold a student in “contempt” of my classroom; that’s what detention and phone calls home and referrals for administrative discipline are. And I can assure you that my tolerance for “bad” behavior went down significantly when the classroom was filled with a greater percentage of students who felt it was necessary to challenge authority. Otherwise, the result was chaos as other students began to pile on to the growing brouhaha. And I was, as my students will tell you, a pretty laid back teacher.

In the video, the defendant is asked for his plea. He starts with a series of questions not relevant to the question, but the judge is willing to answer them at first. But when it becomes clear that he is not truly asking for information, but rather attempting to make an irrelevant point, he refuses her request to answer her question, and then questions her authority. Whereupon he is found to have committed direct contempt and is given some time in a holding cell to re-think his approach.

One of the reasons that direct contempt has a very low threshold of due process for being applied is that the person in contempt is considered to have the keys to his cell. All he has to do to get out of confinement is do what the judge requests he do. Needless to say, it is the continued intransigence of this person that gets him in trouble.

I know that for a subset of our society, the idea that you have to acquiesce to authority is anathema. But that’s how society works. When the police officer tells you to stand still, and not do a certain thing, you stand still and you don’t do that thing, no matter how wrong you think the officer is. He may BE wrong, but that can usually be sorted out later. Similarly, when a judge asks you a question, you answer the question, or expect that there will be consequences. You certainly don’t take the judge to task.

And the mental health evaluation wasn’t to determine if he should be locked up for being crazy. It was to determine if he was too loco to represent himself in court. You don’t have to have a lawyer act on your behalf in court, you can do it yourself. But even crazy people deserve to have someone who understands what is going on to represent them. If you’re too mentally incompetent to understand the proceedings, then you can’t act on your own behalf in court, which means that the court will have to appoint someone to act for you. And the fact that you don’t want that to happen doesn’t mean anything if you’re too crazy to make that decision.

However, in this case the result of the psych evaluation is very likely that the defendant isn’t crazy, just an asshole, and so he is mentally competent to defend himself. If you’re crazy and insult the judge, the judge won’t hold it against you, because you’re crazy. If you’re just an asshole and insult the judge expect a different result.

You weren’t asked what she shouldn’t do, but what she should. Unless she has the ability to maintain order and procedure, anyone could drag out even a simple case for months just by introducing mountains of irrelevant information and asking irrelevant questions, and it was immediately obvious that irrelevance was his intent.

But let’s assume he didn’t directly challenge her but did keep talking about various pseudolegal theories and asking pseudolegal questions and ignoring her attempts to answer. How much of the court’s time should she allow him to waste? There are other cases pending, I presume. Do you want your dispute put on hold while this guy wastes time on his?

I stopped there. As I wrote earlier, centuries of precedence, starting in the British system of law that the American system borrowed so much from, showed that it is absolutely necessary for citizens to treat the courts respectfully. Judges are the living symbols of the law, and the “law” means that an entire system of justice, including the guarantee of representation, public testimony, and peer jurors, exist. The laws are written, known to all, and applied in public courtrooms.

The law is supposed to be impartial, neutral, and fair. Does it ever achieve those ideals? Probably not. Humans are involved. Prosecutors are human, defense attorneys are human, heck, bailiffs are human. Judges are also human. Nothing human ever lives up to the loftiness of our ideals.

Judges are supposed to maintain decorum in their courts. It’s not merely necessary to the running of a trial, it’s part and parcel of the definition of what being a judge means. If you don’t like them doing so, all I can suggest is to consider what the system would look like if they didn’t.

Does that apply to all parties in a courtroom; like subpoenaed witnesses (see kayaker’s post) & jurors (disinterested, falling asleep, etc)?

Fun fact: Gavin Seim, the guy who’s youtube video is linked to in the OP (he’s the narrator, not the guy yelling at the Judge) is currently a fugitive from justice. He’s wanted for two misdemeanor charges in Washington state (where he used to live), one is for harassing a police officer and I forget what the other one is ATM. He had a trial date early last December but instead of going to court he packed up his wife and five small children and moved to Mexico. It is unclear if he has anything more permanent than a tourist visa so he may have to recross the boarder to renew that visa at some point. Lucky for him his former home town will almost certainly not pay to have him extradited to face trial, hell they know him well enough that they might spill a little cash to keep him out of the country.

So I get all of this and totally agree … but going back to an earlier example how does not buttoning your top button or not wearing socks cause justice not to work?

IANAL, and I’ve spent as little time in courts as I was able to, but i would assume that it applies to anyone within the walls of the court. Anyone who is interfering with the proceedings of he court, whether it be witness, juror, lawyer, defendant, or just members of the audience.

If you interfere with court business, then it seems perfectly reasonable to me that you be found in contempt of court, same as if you interfere with the operating of McDonald’s, there will be consequences.

Did you notice that those examples were aimed at lawyers? Lawyers are held to a higher standard and are expected to know how to act and present themselves professionally. Now I’ve been in a small amount of courtrooms many times as opposed to a lawyer who would visit many courts but I have never seen a judge come down on a defendant or witness for what they are wearing beyond telling them to remove their hat.

From watching the video, the first scene is textbook “It isn’t your turn to talk, obey the rules” followed by a hilariously stupid bit with the narrator and the thing at the top about “judge losing it when defendant doesn’t worship her”, which is completely at odds with the reality of the first scene.

Honestly, if someone thinks that this is a scene of oppression and the judge expected him to worship her, this person is completely out of touch with reality and full of themselves. I’d wonder if the person was even capable of holding a job or if they had this kind of delusional relationship with all authority.

I mean, I know that I have problems with authority figures, but this isn’t in the same multiverse as a reasonable understanding of society and how it works.