How Fat is Too Fat?

In My Humble Opinion
101

This. The reason why people fail on the paleo/low-carb/Mediterranean carousel is because they can’t or won’t stick to them over the long-term. These diets generally encourage the attitude that they only need to be followed until the desired goal has been reached, then they can go back to whatever it was they were doing, despite the fact that whatever it was they were doing was what caused them to gain weight in the first place.

On the other hand, it’s far better to find a sustainable diet that allows a variety of foods (including the occasional junk food as a treat), and not only learning how to make healthy choices but internalizing that knowledge so that making those choices becomes automatic. When I go to a buffet, as I did Friday, I know it’s a danger zone but at the same time, I have new habits that kept me from going after the high-fat, high-carb stuff that I know I shouldn’t eat. I did indulge in some dessert, but I didn’t have one piece of everything, I had two half-portions of two different things that I really like. I left the restaurant feeling satisfied, but not gorged.

This wasn’t easy, and I can’t stress that enough. I joined Weight Watchers expecting to fail, because I failed a zillion times before. But once I got all of the food stuff into my head, and once I figured out that a) I didn’t have to be fat anymore, b) I was the only one who could make me un-fat, and c) that the only things standing in my way were my attitude and my behavior, the weight fell right off. If I lose another five pounds, I’ll be happy. I will be just above the maximum “healthy” BMI, but I will look great (not that I don’t now), feel great, and be truly healthy.

102

I’m not sure how one would test my hypothesis since it’s difficult to measure peoples’ mentalities towards diet and weight loss. People tend to deceive themselves and others about how they think.

But I do know for a fact that there are people out there who are clearly going about things the wrong way. For example, a few months ago I met a guy who was about 6’3" who told me that he was eating only 800 calories a day. Sorry, but he’s part of the 95%. Similarly, I have a family member who dieted like crazy so he could look fit for his college reunion. He’s also part of the 95%.

So I’m pretty confident that if you avoid approaches which are undeniably counter-productive, your odds are a lot better than the baseline 5%.

And by the way, for your typical middle-aged fat American, being at the same weight he was 5 years earlier is a pretty good accomplishment.

103

These are medical programs that are straight up setting the goals as realistic ones and are several months long or longer, often with longer periods of follow up. These are not things that people do to be ready for next month’s wedding or High School Reunion. These are not bizzaro diets. These are programs that spend much energy trying to teach the long term changes that will be required to maintain weight loss. Part of every one of these programs is setting realistic goals and some have including psychological counseling.

These are people who “approached dieting in a realistic, sustainable way.”

They still underestimated the amount of support they would need afterwards to maintain weight loss. My suspicion, no study to back it up, is that the focus on weight as the goal undermines success. When the “attaboy” is the number on the scale then the positive reinforcer decreases as the going gets tougher. Do all the right behaviors and you still hit the plateau. Work at it harder and you still stay on the plateau, maybe then lose a bit more and stop, even eating less and exercising more. “Why bother?” they think. Score yourself on the behavior and you can keep getting your attaboys. Better fitness you can measure and achieve. Those hearts on the calander for having done it today even though you do not like it. You deserve your attaboy. (But not a sweet reward!)

104

Like it or not, that is what is going to have to happen.

In that study people lost 10% of their weight. As a result their brain and endocrine system changed to make them gain the weight back (emotional and cognitive attitudes toward food changed, thyroid levels changed, etc). Giving those people leptin helped change their brains and thyroid levels back to what they were at baseline. As a result they will probably have an easier time maintaining the weight loss. But it’ll be years before that is in the market. There is a lot of obesity research going on, and I’m sure in 10-20 years we will not only know enough about bodyweight regulation to get people to lose weight and keep it off but have various lifestyle and medical interventions that make weight maintenance possible. But as of 2012, long term weight maintenance really isn’t realistic for most people. For most people I would say their best bet is to focus on a healthy lifestyle people can sustain over the long term and not focus on weight loss in and of itself.

I was reading a blog that discusses obesity from a scientific (not moral) POV and one of the posters was a woman who lost something like 100+ pounds. She said she was hungry and cold all the time, her hair was thin and falling out, she had fatigue, etc. She signed up for a clinical trial on leptin and found her levels were lower than what people with eating disorders have (so basement levels). After they gave her leptin injections her symptoms went away and maintaining the weight loss became a lot easier.

105

I mean, I know it’s pointless to argue, but there is really so much ignorance in this thread. I graduated 2nd in my high school class while working full time as a legally emancipated minor and people want to tell me I lack discipline. I know it’s really hard for people to understand this, but some things are more important than being thin. There’s only so much mental energy to go around. Willpower is a finite resource - the trick, I think, is to move beyond willpower and establish automatic habits that require little to no mental energy. This is a puzzle I am never going to stop trying to work out, because, like most driven people, I hate failing at things. My current motivation to lose weight is the fact that my pants don’t fit me very comfortably and I can’t afford any new ones. At this point I could give a shit less about wearing a bikini at the beach (I’m allergic to the sun, anyway.)

I’m at a point in my life where I pretty much love my body, buddha belly and all… and it’s pathetic it took me almost 30 years to get to this point. But it’s judgmental attitudes like some displayed in this thread that put me there in the first place… the idea that my weight somehow reflects on my character, or my self-esteem, or my ability to comprehend the concept of a ‘‘lifestyle change.’’ I promise, I’m really not that fucking stupid.

My current lack of physical activity is definitely contributing to my aches and pains as I age. I want my clothes to fit me. I would like to not die of a heart attack at the age of 50. Therefore, I continue this struggle with my own behavioral health patterns. But for once, I do it on my own terms, for my own reasons, and not because a bunch of random people think they know more about my problems than I do.

106

I would be curious to find out how quickly she lost the weight and how she lost it. It’s taken me not quite two years to lose 96 lbs. I do have issues with cold intolerance because I don’t have that layer of fat anymore; the flip side is that I don’t melt in the summer heat, either. But I don’t have fatigue, hair problems, and the only times I’m ever really hungry is if I let myself get that way.

If you can find a link, it would be much appreciated.

107

It might be instructive to look at where people are getting more of their calories from in recent decades to see why people are getting fatter:

This blog post has a graph which looks like it came from similar data but through 2010; one thing that stands out is the dramatic spike in added fats around 2000, as much as or more than the increase from grains over a longer period.

108

Ok, so now explain why that stands out to you.

109

They do no such thing. Atkins even explicitly said you can’t go back to eating the way you were before if you want to keep the weight off.

Seriously, this is what pisses me off about these discussions. People seem to only want to consider one aspect, or only look at a part of the whole picture. Like Michael’s comment above about how “the increase of added fats stands out.” All that tells me is that people stopped being afraid of dietary fat but unfortunately added increased fat intake over their already-excessive carbohydrate intake.

it’s simple. we eat too much, and too much of what we eat is junk, because it’s very easy to eat too much junk without realizing how much junk you’re actually eating.

And fine, if you want to press me for a silver bullet or smoking gun, I’d point you to soda. it amazes me how many people I work with who constantly have a can or bottle of soda at the ready. I’d wager these people drink 1200-1500 calories a day, and that’s on top of what they eat.

110

Firstly, you’ve got your solutions in the wrong order. Civilization is likely to collapse before there is a pill for obesity.

As for nonsense, cite for me the immense number of complex neurophysiological medical conditions cured with a simple pill. A medical solution will arrive but it won’t be as simple as just taking a pill or a shot for most people. Fat isn’t something you can in innoculate against.

111

Why do people fail? The obvious answer is the chemical body changes that have taken place, or perhaps were a pre-existing condition. That’s for the scientists and doctors to help figure out.

The less obvious answer is that with most all compulsive self-destructive behavior a person becomes accustomed to the addictive lifestyle. I’ve noticed in recovering addicts that if they don’t make the psychological changes necessary to adjust to what seems to them a boring lifestyle they will just switch addictions - food, shopping, gambling, a different drug of choice.

If a person is literally eating his feelings of anger, grief, inferiority and he removes food from the equation he is going to be in a lot of emotional discomfort. Not just today’s discomfort, but perhaps years of stuffed feelings popping up to vex him.

The whole individual needs to be addressed - his physical health, mental, social - the whole ball of wax. That’s a “lot on his plate” to do all by himself.

112

I would like to point out that often losing weight can require extra money, which is not something everyone has.

You would think, “hey, I’m eating less, I’m going to save on groceries!” Not necessarily. You’ll probably be picking up more fresh fruits and veggies (which are more expensive than canned) and lean protein, which does cost more. Heck, Mom and I only got to have chicken breasts this month because WalMart had a sale!

When you’re on a limited income, like some of us, there isn’t a lot of room in the budget for “extra” stuff. And weight loss can seem like an “extra”, particularly if you’ve got multiple doctor bills breathing down your neck (like me).

Most of these bills are for problems that are not obesity-related. Even my sleep apnea might not be totally caused by obesity, surprisingly enough; on a recent doctor visit he said I didn’t have a lot of room in the back of my throat for some reason. Probably related to the fact I had to get my wisdom teeth removed, and then another bunch removed too. My head is too small I think. Weird.

I just checked out the Medifast web site… The hormone doctor had wanted me to go on that. It costs over $300 for 4 weeks worth of meals. Not counting shipping. That is my food budget for the month. I wouldn’t be able to do that plan anyway; I have some food dislikes that are over 30 years old. You are not going to get me to eat fish or mayonnaise, period. Yuck.

I don’t eat out much at all, and I think my main culprit is lack of exercise. But I can’t afford a gym membership (I’m on disability) and I don’t live in the safest neighborhood so walking is not the best idea. Literally, I live right next door to a rooming house. Plus, I have a bad back that I’m in PT for. So, how am I supposed to exercise? Anyone got an answer for that?

The sad thing is that I was normal weight until high school. I blame puberty. Well, a little. -_^

113

Well, because it is pretty dramatic; the increase in calories from grains and added sugars is just as significant but occurred over a longer period; did eating habits suddenly change in a few years, or did manufacturers secretly add more fats, and why? Also of note is that consumption of animal products declined by 1% (or is that 2%; doesn’t make it clear if meat+dairy declined by 1% total or 1% each), refuting the claims by vegans that those are the cause of obesity (IMHO, they tend to be lighter because they eat healthier and don’t eat all of the processed grain-sugar-fat-based junk which has mainly contributed to the increase in calories).

114

Public responsibility for prevention is all and good but totally sidesteps the issue of those that are unfit already. What to do there? Government mandated cardio programs?

The point I so ineloquently tried to make was that anything done as a social program will be viewed as codling or persecuting from the opposing sides of the issue.

My personal politics? We have bigger fish to fry as a nation. Obesity can simmer on the back burnner a while longer.

115

I will have to disagree with you here Wesley. The pills might be able to someday effectively reduce the weight but that is targeting the symptom more than the problem; the person is still at risk if they have not changed their behaviors. Of course losing weight is not without value, medically and psychologically, but it is not magic bullet.

Hbns the currently obese and unfit are hard to treat. Prevention is always more effective and usually a better investment. The fact of the matter is that targeting the obesity is rarely successful. It requires huge resources for little health gain. OTOH targeting fitness is more often successful, has huge health benefits for little governmental or insurance company cost, requires little but time and effort from the individual, has mental health benefits as well, and may bring about better results on the adiposity as well than do traditional “weight management” approaches. Government cardio mandates? You get that with the death panels maybe? No. Just the health professionals and the media trying to modify the message from the scale to the behaviors.

In terms of prevention the good news, as I’ve mentioned often in these threads, is that what we are doing is working. Previously rapidly increasing obesity rates in children have not only plateaued, they have in some groups actually been decreasing, pretty much as a direct result of the multi-level interventional approaches I’ve been talking about.

That’s the long term cure. At least the start of one. Generationally changing the habits, preventing obesity and unfitness before they occur. And I may be biased, given that kids’ health is my business, but I don’t see too many bigger fish to fry.

116

Mage-girl, I’m ASSuming you’re in the US since you talked about Walmart. :slight_smile: I was shocked that I’m managing to eat better for less than when I wasn’t. I’ll get to that in a moment. But first, what about asking your physical therapist for exercise/activity ideas? That’s a great resource. Also, look on cragislist for a Gazelle. I frequently see them for $40-$75. I don’t know the extent of your back issues, but I have mild scoliosis that makes walking excruciating at times, and with the Gazelle I have no pain. It’s very low-impact. If you don’t think you can physically manage a Gazelle, look for some free weights for your upper body. Anything is better than nothing and is progress.

I could eat like a queen on a food budget of $300 a month. :wink: It’s really not as expensive as you think. My food ends up costing around $250 a month, and I’m eating better than when I lived on Michelina’s, Stauffer’s and cheese. I found I get TWO high-quality meals for the cost of one Stauffer’s. I don’t know what area of the country you’re in, but here in the west we have a chain called Grocery Outlet. In the mid-west, Aldi’s is very similar. I should go look at our Super Walmart and see how the food costs stack up.

Anyway, every ten days or two weeks, I go to Grocery Outlet and buy a gigantic bag of frozen chicken breasts, two pounds of leaner (not full fat, not extra lean) ground beef, a bag of tilapia filets and a bag of (other white fish). It all costs under $30. I know you don’t like fish, but even if you could switch SOME of your meals to chicken or lower fat beef, that too is progress. Maybe there are some inexpensive pork alternatives (not bacon!) of which I’m not aware, and I’ve been curious about vegi patties, too, but I don’t know if they’d have enough protein for me.

I let it all thaw for a couple days, then I spend about 45 minutes grilling the chicken and beef on my George Foreman grill. I put them in baggies of two or three servings and freeze them and pull them out as needed. As long as the fish is thawed, I microwave it in a bowl for a minute and thirty seconds with a little water and one of my interesting vinegars so I don’t need to pre-cook that.

I’d love to buy fresh vegi’s all the time, but that’s not in the budget. While I do buy some, I buy bags and bags of frozen vegi’s for around a dollar, which each yield two or three servings. I buy romaine lettuce and some other greens once a week or so for about $6. I used to like iceberg, but have found it doesn’t have much nutritional value and have come to prefer the taste of romaine and salad greens, so I don’t waste the money. I don’t worry about the fat in the dressing-salad has to taste good.

I go through a $.99 baggie of those pre-peeled baby carrots every few days. A bag of Roma tomatoes at Grocery Outlet is $2 and I eat about one every day.

With fruit I shop the sales when the farmers’ markets aren’t in season. Fuji’s for $.99 a pound are usually my favorites. Tangerines/oranges/satsumas should be showing up soon. I try to $tay away from processed foods, but one of my favorite snacks is a sliced apple with Blue Cheese Laughing Cow cheese. OMG! It really does taste decadent.

I’d love to be able to eat non-GMO or hormone/antibiotic-injected foods, but for right now they aren’t in my budget and my body IS telling me that this is better than how I used to eat so I must be doing something right.

I hope maybe I’ve given you some ideas. Mainly I wanted you to not give up hope and it IS possible to eat better. Even one healthier meal a day is better than none.

117

It’s when I increased my animal protein intake that I was able to feel better and get healthier. Humans are omnivores. I understand that some people are able to be healthy with a vegan diet, but I would be a pale, shaky disaster. Not arguing, just commenting.

118

Also, on the subject of expense: beans and rice, baby. I can get a pound of brown rice for a buck and beans are just as cheap. And once or twice a week we go veggies only. I feel that I need a fair amount of lean meat to be healthy, but one vegetarian dinner a week is no big deal, and it saves us a few bucks.

119

I spend about $40 a week on groceries, and that’s in NYC. And that includes a pack of oreos or Doritos!

I don’t even eat all that healthy, and I stay slim and trim. Here’s how I do it:

No emotional eating. This includes punishment/reward eating, which I think is where a lot of people get screwed up, especially in childhood. I don’t console myself with food or reward myself with food. I’m not a “foodie”; while I like tasty food, food has never been an end in itself to me.

I stop eating when I’m full. I don’t clean my plate. If I think I might want it later, I stick in the fridge to be warmed up in the microwave.

I eat small meals four or fives times a day. I get hungry frequently, so I might get cereal when I wake up, then a bit later a banana as I head to work, then I might buy a pizza slice or a sandwich at the food court while I’m at work. At home, I fix a hamburger steak with gravy and a side of canned vegetables, then at night I’ll eat a bagel or a PB&J or something like that. I don’t starve myself so I’m not ravenous when I sit down to eat, so I don’t stuff myself until I’m about to puke.

Movement. Here’s where NYC helps me out a bit. You sorta have to walk and climb stairs a lot to live here, it can’t be helped. My walking, at a bare minimum, just to get to work and back includes ten minutes from my apartment to the train, up and down three flights of stairs, a three minute walk from the train to work, and then several hours alternatively strolling and sitting at work. Then do it all again to get home. And that’s just making it to and from work. Hanging out with friends frequently requires walking, especially if we go to a museum. I like to go to metal and rock shows, which is fairly physical and usually results in standing and jumping around. I periodically get a gym membership which I mostly use to go swimming. When I was a waitress I did probably ten times the amount of running around that I do now, and I did that for two solid years, six days a week, eight hours a day.

I have never dieted, never starved myself, never been a vegan or a vegetarian, and I’ve never weighed more than 130 lbs. I’ve never been a competitive athlete in anything. My only secret is that I sprinkle Cajun spices on everything I cook. And I eat tons of carbs – hell, I ate Pop-tarts until I burned my lip badly on one and swore off them forever. I’ll eat some popcorn when I go to see a movie. I am proof that your options are not “eat yummy and be fat” or “be slim but eat like a bird”.

120

You know that and I know that, but the fact is that most people treat diet changes as temporary fixes to lose the weight, not as the permanent changes they need to be if the weight is to stay off long-term. Hence my love for Weight Watchers. It’s a livable plan that is sustainable and because the focus is on changing behaviors, the weight is likely to stay off as long as those new behaviors are maintained. And, frankly, a lot of these diets are very unsustainable because they’re boring or complicated or have too much that is off-limits that it would take a very, very motivated person to be able to stick to it beyond the initial honeymoon phase.

I also agree with you that we’re eating too much junk food. I just spent the afternoon cleaning out my kitchen cabinets. I have two trash bags full of processed food that is basically empty calories. There is no way I’m eating Rice-a-Roni. Even if it is cheap, it’s a waste of money because there’s nothing healthy about it. It tastes good and it’ll fill you up, but that’s all it will do.

I also call bullshit on “it’s too expensive to eat healthy food!” If your portion sizes are appropriate, you get more meals from the same amount of food. My dinner steak came from four pounds of meat, which works out to five bucks to feed three people steak. I also plan meals in advance so I know what to shop for and how much to buy so no food is wasted. Since I’ve been on Weight Watchers, my food costs haven’t grown by any appreciable amount for these reasons, even though I buy more fresh food.