Sorry man but I agree with Airbeck on this one. Your arguments basically boil down to Jordan was good because of his coach and team while Lebron is the reason his teams were good.
Since this is all opinion based I feel your position is valid I just disagree.
Given the question isn’t about LBJ vs. MJ, but the two eras…
Advantage: MJ’s era.
Jordan’s total career value is limited by his stepping away for the sport in the middle of his career, which basically removes two prime seasons. Had he not spent a couple of years in his hopeless quest to be a pro baseball player, He would not only have two more prime years, but maybe another ring. He also “retired” at the age of 34 despite still being an exceptionally good player (yeah, he came back with the Wizards, but wasn’t the same.) If he’d just stayed in basketball, there would be no debate here.
I mean, I normally expect better teams to beat lesser teams. But, let’s examine this with actual facts; how did James’s teams fare against better or worse teams? Did James successfully elevate inferior teams to victory, or tend to play on teams that choked against inferior teams? Did he have more upsets than chokes? If he’s NOT a winner, we would expect his teams to have more chokes than upsets.
Against Teams With Worse W/L Records: 27-3
Against Teams with Better W/L Records: 9-8
James has never been in a playoff series in which both teams had exactly the same record… anyway, so what we see here is that when playing inferior teams, LeBron’s team wins 90% of the time. When playing superior teams, LeBron’s team has actually won more than half the series (including the greatest Finals comeback of all time.) Just barely, but still, that’s quite impressive. Clearly,** his teams outperform their expected record in playoff series.** This is a very impressive record. In effect, his teams won six more series out of 47 than would be expected by his team’s actual W/L records.
How about His Airness?
Against Teams With Worse W/L Records: 27-0
Against Teams with Better W/L Records: 5-7
Tied Record: 1-0 (1998 Finals against Utah)
His Airness was even BETTER against inferior teams, never losing a series. However, he wasn’t as impressive against superior teams - 5-7 is still great, of course, especially in the NBA, but it’s not 9-8. Jordan’s teams won five more series out of 39 than would be expected by their W/L record.
I mean, it looks to me like both men absolutely made their teams even better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season.
I was going to do this for some other all time greats like Magic but it takes a long time.
The argument I made was that Jordan’s success in winning 6 titles was heavily dependent on Pippen, coach Jackson and a consistent group of role players behind him. In no way did I suggest that Jordan ONLY won because of them. Clearly they wouldn’t have won without him; it would be silly to suggest otherwise. He was by far the best player of his era, in case I didn’t make that clear.
LeBron never had a great coach, a consistent #2, or all-time great defenders to help boost his odds of winning more championships. He was stuck in Cleveland, where no one wanted to be, so he had to move. It takes time for a team to gel; you can’t throw a bunch of players together and expect them to win right away. That first Bulls championship came after 3 years of that squad being together. You can’t under-estimate this.
The idea that Jordan was a materially better player in years 7,8, and 9 versus years 4,5 and 6 cannot be supported by actual evidence.
Basketball is a team sport, and I hope no one thinks that you could have replaced Jordan’s sidekicks with any random players and still have had the same success.
Again, go back and look at the hodge podge of ne’er-do-well players that LeBron carried on his back to the playoffs and Finals. Fine, we can exclude the 4 years in Miami, since I always have mad respect for DWade. If there is really an example (besides LeBron) of a player putting a team on his back, it was Wade in the playoffs the year they beat Dallas.
There is no evidence that Jordan would have had the same success with LeBron’s supporting casts, since he didn’t get as far with far superior support.
Being a Nets fan, it is becoming increasingly apparent that Kyrie was a champion only because of LeBron. Sure, he hit some big shots against GSW, but that just shows how much LeBron elevates his teams. Again, look at the teams that LeBron joined, before, during, and after he left. The difference he makes in elevating teams and fellow players is unmatched by anyone ever.
What, exactly, is objective about any of the points you made in your argument? Everything you stated was subjective. Everything.
This whole debate is subjective, just as every debate in any sport comparing two greats of different eras. The difference is you seem to want to assert that your subjective opinions are actually objective facts. Then when anyone brings up 6-0 vs 3-5 as an example of an objective fact, the response is just “but, their teammates and coaches!” as if that isn’t right back in subjective-land, and as if you don’t use different criteria to judge the two players. I’m clearly not the only one that sees this.
All subjective. Sorry, but it is what it is. You state that LeBron elevated his teammates, but Jordan did not. Again I ask, what did Pippen do in Portland? Jordan did change in a very important way after years 4,5,6. He learned that he couldn’t do it all himself when the league was crafting defenses specifically to stop him, called the Jordan Rules. He needed to learn that he had to trust his teammates, and yes, elevate them, so that teams couldn’t just focus their entire defenses on him. Did any teams ever come up with the LeBron rules the way the Jordan rules existed back then? Look, we can go back and forth all day, but neither you nor I will ever get the other one to change their minds. Because its all subjective.
But you don’t disagree that winning a title is objectively better than losing in the title game, right? Especially when we are talking about the greatest of all time, not just greatness in general.
You are the one that keeps talking about teammates, all of a sudden now you don’t want to talk about teammates? It would help if we could have solid ground to debate from instead of this shifting sand that you seem to like.
Quite the contrary, you’ve only proved my point by contrasting the Bills and Steelers. Was your point that Terry Bradshaw was a better QB than Jim Kelly? Even as a lifelong Steelers fan since 1978, I don’t agree with this.
You’re the one who keeps using Jordan’s 6 rings as the reason why you think he’s better than LeBron. I’ve consistently maintained that teammates, coaches and stability matter in dynasties, and that you can’t give all the credit to one player.
Jordan proved that he can win playoff series and championships alongside another all-time great player or 2, and one of the greatest coaches, and after being together for years. LeBron has proved that he can with a much lower level of support, coaching and consistency. Yes, of course he still needed other players; I never said he could do it alone.
Yes, these are all subjective arguments. But when in doubt, we have to bring in objective criteria.
And yet you give all credit for LeBron’s acheivements to LeBron himself, and give all blame for his shortcomings solely to his teammates. You are evaluating the 2 players with different metrics and standards.
Unless you don’t like the objective facts that are brought up that don’t align with your views, such as the 538 analysis mentioned earlier, and yes 6-0 v 3-5. You use subjective opinions to try to devalue that, but it is still subjective. Numbers, stats, records, those are objective. Comparing teammates, opponents, contemporary players, coaching? Those are all completely subjective. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and they are valid, just as all opinions are valid, but don’t lose sight of the fact that that’s all we are really doing here, discussing our opinions. There is no objective way to prove this one way or another, especially to either of our satisfaction.
Well, sure. If LeBron was 8-0 in the Finals that would be way better than 3-5. That he is 3-5 doesn’t prove to my satisfaction that he is an inferior player to Magic, Michael or anyone else. It’s one data point in favor of that argument.
There is a very strange tendency in this debate (well, it’s common to sports arguments) to be extremist in characterizing the other’s position. When Juggernaut makes the argument that Jordan had a superior supporting cast and coaching help him win championships - something I think is obviously true - his argument is bizarrely misrepresented as suggesting that Jordan wasn’t any better than his teammates. Of course, the opposite argument, which we haven’t seen here but invite in enough sports fans and we absolutely would, would be that Jordan was the ONLY reason they won six rings. Both arguments are preposterous.
You have to think along the margins. Would Jordan have won six rings with the teams LeBron had? Honestly, no, he just wouldn’t have. You can’t seriously argue that the supporting cast means nothing at all, or else the Bulls would have won the title every year and wouldn’t have had to bother to assemble good players around Jordan. But would he have won NO titles without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson? That strikes me as being equally ridiculous, and to be honest, I am not sure that in such a circumstance he’d be any less great a player. If he’d had less capable teammates and had won 3, 4 or 5 rings instead of six, that reflects on his inferior teammates, not him. It’s a team sport.
Had LeBron had better teams to play with in Cleveland, would he have won a few more rings? Quite possibly. But the opposite is true as what I just said about Mike; that would not necessarily make LeBron a greater player. Adding a better center to the 2010 Cavs maybe gives him another ring, but that doesn’t make him a better player, it just means he had better teammates.
The point Jackknifed is trying to make isn’t that LeBron was wholly responsible for winning titles; obviously, were he surrounded by high school players, all his teams would have gone 0-82. It’s that LeBron was a greater part of his teams, on average, than Michael was, and that that might explain why he won three rings to Michael’s six. I find that argument at least partially compelling because is strikes me as being visibly obvious that his Cleveland teammates were VERY inferior to Jordan’s Bulls teammates. They weren’t all useless turds; some were really good players. He didn’t have Scottie Pippen, though.
I mean, this year LeBron is on a really strong Lakers squad. They could win the title, but if they dod there is, barring a playoff performance for the ages, no way LeBron would be as responsible for that title as he was for the three he already has. He’s playing great, but goddamn that team is loaded with terrific basketball players. Anthony Davis is maybe the best teammate he’s ever had (while he played with him) and they’re got quality veterans all over the court. The Lakers are playing Dwight Howard OFF THE BENCH (a role he is actually doing really well in.) There is no rational way you could say LeBron winning a title with the 2020 Lakers is as much greatness credit as winning it with the 2016 Cavs.
You keep bringing up Pippen and Rodman while completely ignoring Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love. Would Lebron have won anything with any one of those guys missing? I will concede that I think Jordan had some better teammates vs Lebron but Lebron’s playoff opponents don’t even rank in the same class as Jordan’s opponents.
A big factor in rankings is who you had to beat in order to win the championship. Jordan went toe to toe with Magic, Isiah, Bird, Miller, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton & Malone, Drexler & Porter, young Shaq, Hakeem, etc, etc, etc. Who has Lebron had to beat? Wade and Bosh…oops, I forgot he punked out and teamed up with those guys instead of just beating them down like Mike would have done. Let’s try this then, give me a list of quality opponents Lebron had to beat in order to become champion. If your list for Lebron can come close to matching Jordan’s list then I will concede this point and move on.
Back in the day Jordan could only be defended using hand checking and hard fouls and you think if you put him in the league today (on one of Lebron’s championship squads) with NO hand checking and NO hard fouls that he would somehow be worse? If you believe that then your reality does not work the way my reality does. He would destroy everyone.
I was a huge NBA fan thru the end of the Bulls reign. For various reasons, I stopped watching any team sports since then. But there is one factor that I do not believe has been mentioned yet, which affects the comparison of team achievements from then and now. Back then IIRC, teams played other teams in their conference 6-7 times, and played only 2 games - home and away - against the other conference teams. So the Bulls were playing the Pistons/Celtics/Hawks/Cavs… MANY times a year, whereas their games against LA/Portland… were an EVENT! In my mind, it made it much more of a big deal, that the Bulls hhad to claw past Cleveland, and then past the Celts and then the Pistons, before making it to the finals. Somehow it seemed like it made the matchups a little more meaningful.
Similar to the way I used to prefer when the Big 10 consisted of 10 teams, and their football and hoops championships were determined by team against team home and away play throughout the season. Made the whole season more dramatic - part of a whole.
It wasn’t just Bird and the Celts - it was Parrish/McHale/Whining Danny Ainge/DJ. And it wasn’t just Isaiah, it was Mahorn/Salley/Rodman/Lambeer/Vinnie Johnson… Same way the Lakers weren’t just Magic/Kareem (my all time fave when he was Lew Alcindor w/ Big O on the Bucks!) …Dennis Cooper/Rambis/Worthy. That I can still remember all of these players by name so many years later suggests there was SOME quality throughout the league.
Just a thought.
Also, as I recall, every Bulls fan back then appreciated what Grant, Pippen, and the others brought to the court. Man, when Grant, Pippen, and Jordan applied the press, it was like watching the 86 Bears D swarm. But it really got old when their end-of-game offense devolved to “isolate MJ, and let him drive/draw a foul.”
What you just described are all of the little things that made me a huge fan of the NBA back in the day. If you wanted to win the chip you had to fight your way up the mountain and claw your way past all of the bad mofos standing in your way. Yeah man, that was the good stuff.
Minor nitpick, it was Michael Cooper…
Fuck! Loved them tall socks! 
Actually, that post is the first time I have mentioned Pippen in reference to Michael Jordan, and I have not mentioned Dennis Rodman at all.
I do not think that, have not even suggested it, and that weird idea has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have written. You seem confused. Who do you think you are replying to?
Nope, you just keep repeating the “superior teammates and coaching” while ignoring that LeBron has required at least 2 All-Stars with 20+ PER to win.
3-5 isn’t a testament to how good LeBron has been, it’s a condemnation of the weakness of the Eastern Conference.
I have not repeated the “superior coaching” bit. I’ve agreed with that idea once.
Well, I would imagine most champions have more than one All-Star calibre player. Again with the extremist arguments; “this guy had an All Star teammate” doesn’t mean it was the best team ever, or that other teams might not be better.
Not “an”.
Multiple. We’re talking repeatedly moving around in free agency and forcing trades, to get two or more top 20 players in the NBA to play WITH LeBron at any time he was a contender.
Wade is the only player that even comes close to rising at the level of Pippen, in contributing to the championships of LeBron or Jordan. And by the time he started playing with LeBron, he had fallen to All-NBA 3rd team. Bosh never rose to that class. Neither did Irving or Love.
Plus, you’re ignoring the defensive side of the ball. Not only was Pippen perennial All-NBA 1st or 2nd team, he was on 8 1st team defenses. These were the Bulls championship years. Plus Rodman led the league in rebounds for all 3 years of that 2nd 3-peat. You know it, the year after Jordan lost to Shaq, who in turn got destroyed by Olajuwon (since we’re boiling this all down to individual players). Which is why the Bulls had to enlist their arch-enemy, Rodman. While LeBron’s success is often downplayed due to his joining a “super team”, to quote Draymond Green, “you started it, bruh!” should have been directed at Jordan. Followed by Shaq and Kobe. Although the Rockets acquiring Drexler might have been the blueprint.
So if you’re discounting the contributions of Pippen in those 6 rings, achieving awards only surpassed by Jordan, then perhaps you’ve answered the OP’s question about Jordan’s era. Clearly very weak, if even Pippen was making all-NBA and all-Defense 1st teams. Makes sense, when Magic, Bird, and Isiah all got old, and when Shaq was just getting started.
And yet all of those that played with LeBron managed PERs of 20+ while they were on the same team. Jordan’s teammates? Pippen was about 20 more often than not, but other than that, he got 20+ contributions from teammates three times, total. Wade himself, though you enjoy deriding him, posted PERs of 26 and 24 in the Heatles’ championship seasons, both higher than anything Pippen managed.
And Jordan was All-Defensive First Team nine times. Sure doesn’t help your argument that LeBron is better…
You’re the one completely ignoring the contribution of multiple consistent All-Stars while simultaneously harping on the contribution of one.
Make that two.
I guess I must have missed something in the 90’s, because I don’t remember Jordan running away from the team that drafted him to join an already-champion like Dwyane Wade to carry him through the Finals.
So Pippen’s all-NBA teams count, but Wade’s, Bosh’s, Love’s, Irving’s, and Davis’s don’t. Got it.