I guess all of this proves the original point that teams, and not individuals, win championships. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Sure, some individual players contribute more to the “whole” by being better and making other players better. But counting rings in no way makes MJ a better player than LeBron. Again, and this is subjective, but you replace Jordan with LeBron, and the Bulls still win 6 and likely a whole lot more. Can’t say the same the other way around.
My bad. You referenced JackJugg’s and his positions several times in your reply and apparently somewhere along the way I started merging your arguments together with his. My reply is to the combined argument that seems to only exist in my head.
Convo has moved on so I will let the points stand and try to jump back into the flow
I think the Jordan had superior teammates argument is bunk. I would say Wade and Pippen basically cancel each other out in the comparison but that still leaves Lebron with the notable teammates of Bosh, Love and Kyrie while Jordan is left with Rodman. And if I really wanted to nitpick I would add Ray Allen to Lebron’s list even though he was a bit past his best used by date during that particular championship run. That just leaves the Zen Master unaccounted for.
And Jordan didn’t start the whole super team concept. Dude never conspired with Barkley and Hakeem to leverage their free agency so that they can form the NBA’s first AAU squad with the goal of removing 2 competitive teams (Toronto and Cleveland) from their conference then beating up on everybody else knowing they had disproportionally less talent. If I’m not mistaken, that punk ass move by Lebron was basically the start of his long string of finals appearances (minus 2007) and the end of any type of competitive balance in the east. He executed his plan flawlessly and he got exactly what he wanted (minus a lot more rings) but if he hadn’t left Cleveland to go hide under Wade’s skirt then he would be getting a lot more respect than he does now. For most of us die hard basketball fans that one particular move permanently removed him from the greatest of all time debate. Winners don’t run, they fight and they overcome or they fall while giving everything they have.
Same goes for Durant in case your were wondering.
Now the phrase “dunking turds” won’t leave my head, thanks. Also, punk band name.
That punk band’s album cover should feature a giant “drinking bird” toy dipping into a toilet.
During James’s four years in Miami, the Heat only finished first overall in the East once, in 2012-2013.
I am extremely skeptical of your use of the word “most” here.
Everyone knows teams should be chosen by people who own used car dealerships or tech companies, not by gasp basketball players.
The real winner of the east is whoever wins the eastern conference finals and that was Lebron in 2011 (Mia), 2012 (Mia), 2013 (Mia), 2014 (Mia), 2015 (Cle), 2016 (Cle) and 2017 (Cle)
I’m not skeptical that “most” diehards think Lebron punked out. It’s been a standard basketball debate since 2011 and I’ve spoken with fans from the US to Taiwan who all agree that our opinions of Lebron took a hit when he moved into the house that DWade’s built.
I think you misunderstand why we disliked the move so much. I don’t think most folks have an issue with players choosing their own teams. Quite the contrary, more power to them I say.
What we hate is when the very top players in the league choose to negatively impact the overall competitive balance of the league in order to team up with other top players in an effort to pave an easy path to a ring. Lebron, Wade and Bosh were three of the top 5 players in the east and three of the top 15 players in the league when they teamed up. And by doing so they essentially removed 2 playoff capable teams from the path they needed to walk to get to the finals all while ensuring their path to the finals would remain easy for the next few years as the east retooled from the shake up.
I don’t know about you but I don’t watch basketball to see a bunch of superstars going around beating up on weaker competition on an easy path to victory. I watch because I want to see people take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. Jordan is widely considered the best because he took on all comers and emerged victorious more often than not. When Jordan ran into an obstacle he couldn’t clear (like the Bad Boys) he went back to the lab and cooked up a solution. What he didn’t do is punk out and go ask to join other top tier talent because the Pistons kept beating him up.
So LeBron’s teams kept winning the conference even when at least one or two other teams appeared to have an equal amount of talent? That’s a good thing for him.
So people you know all agree with you he “punked out”? Still not convinced that’s “most basketball fans.”
Incidentally, I find it weird that in greatest player debates, no one talks about Kareem. Geez, it wasn’t that long ago. Kareem won six rings (with two different franchises) was for awhile obviously the greatest player in the world, and played at a stellar level for an incredibly long time.
Apart from when he went and recruited Dennis Rodman, that is, but I guess that doesn’t count because reasons.
Yup, I only have anecdotal evidence to present. If you’ve got some compelling evidence that I’m wrong I’m all ears (eyes).
Kareem was a spectacular talent. Definitely an all time great. But he doesn’t get mentioned because Magic was The Man on the Lakers for 5 of his rings. Kareem didn’t want to wear the crown and he was more than happy to step back and let Magic run the show.
As a Chicagoan, I’m glad Michael Jordan’s star has faded somewhat. I’d rather that Chicago was known for Al Capone. No, really.
I don’t remember that story. My understanding (and google backs this up) is that Rodman was not going to be able to continue in San Antonio due to an extremely poor attitude so the Spurs traded him to Chicago for low low price of Will Perdue. By Grabthar’s Hammer, What A Savings!
How did Jordan convince the Spurs to trade Rodman exactly? If Jordan pulled that off then it’s obvious I don’t respect his impact on the league enough!
Yeah this isn’t how it happened. Micheal was never defacto GM like LeBron. So that’s why it doesn’t count. Not because reasons, but because its false revisionist history being used to justify LeBron being unable to win without joining forces with his top conference rivals.
As a life-long Chicagoan and only the most casual of basketball fans (it’s my least favorite major sport), absolutely not. If it’s Jordan vs Capone, come on.
I don’t think his star has faded at all. It’s just that a brighter star popped into existence!
As for Capone, he is surely the GGOAT… Greatest Gangster of All Time!
More recent != brighter
Also, a subjective claim being phrased as a statement of fact does not confer factuality or objectivity to that claim.
Well, I think it’s obvious in “who’s better?” discussions that these are all opinions. I presented actual facts numerous times in this discussion, so I have no reason to keep going. Jordan backers in this debate have been anchored to their belief so long that they can’t see reality. Even before LeBron even won a single ring, and while I don’t think it will happen, this will be the case even if he wins 3 more.
You’ve presented many opinions that you keep trying to state as if they are objective facts. Doesn’t change the fact that every single thing you’ve argued is a subjective opinion.
And LeBron backers are so blinded by the shine of recent history that they can’t see anything further back and are denying all reality prior to 2007.
We can both do this if this is the kind of debate you want. Although I’m personally getting tired of it, and getting tired of these little needling insults you need to keep peppering your posts with aimed at anyone that disagrees with you. You are not the arbiter of reality.
Both players are all time greats. Nobody disputes that. Which is the GOAT is, and always will be a matter of opinion. If you stop insisting your opinions are “actual facts” then we don’t really have a disagreement. We just have different opinions. That is possible without having to refer to either side as being disconnected from reality.