How has Obama been to the left of Clinton?

[RitterSport]

It seems to me that Obama has consistently been to Clinton’s right:

Taxes: Clinton raised taxes across the board. Obama - keep the Bush-era tax cuts, except for those above $250,000

Gun Control: Clinton had the assault weapons ban, Obama - nothing?

Welfare: Clinton had welfare to work, a big move to the right, Obama has moved further in that direction by proposing to give more control to the states, but only if they can demonstrate better results

Healthcare: Clinton proposed a single-payer plan, Obama passed the Heritage plan

Military: One would expect Obama to be further right, since 9/11, and he has been: drone strikes in Afghanistan and Pakistan, defending indefinite detentions, an international terrorist hit list (Clinton only had a domestic hit list (kidding!))

Immigration: Clinton - nothing? Obama - built up security on the border, unprecedented levels of deportations

Gay rights: Clinton - big move to the left with Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell (compared to Do Ask/Discharge previously in place), move to the right with DOMA. Obama: further left with abolition of Ask/Tell, not sure what direction his non-defense of DOMA is, since it gives more rights to the states.

Abortion: Clinton - nothing? Obama - nothing?

Supreme Court: I would argue that Bader-Ginsburg is more reliably liberal that Sotomayor or Kagan, but I’m not sure

Banking regs: Here, Clinton favored fewer regulations, with overturning Glass-Steagel, where Obama passed Dodd-Frank.

It seems to me that, with the exception of Banking regs and the possible exception of gay rights (where Obama has trailed the general public’s big lurch towards more rights), Obama has been consistently to the right of Clinton. It further seems that if you called yourself a centrist during the Clinton years, you would be in love with Obama, whereas liberal and progressives may only grudgingly vote for Obama as the lesser of two weevils.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

He’s blacker.

[ryanl]

It’s somewhat tricky to compare their actions because of the stark economic and political differences between the Clinton and Obama eras. For example, Clinton’s administration had the benefit of working with a robust economy. Would he have raised taxes had he presided over the economy that the Obama administration has been working with? Unlikely, in my opinion. Another example is gun control; Clinton presided during a time when gun control was still an active political issue. Today, talk of gun control is essentially a political non-issue, thanks to the NRA and the SCOTUS’s post-Clinton decision in DC v. Heller.

The same argument could apply to the other issues you raised. The political trends have generally shifted right since the Clinton administration.

[RitterSport]

@ryanl

It’s somewhat tricky to compare their actions because of the stark economic and political differences between the Clinton and Obama eras. For example, Clinton’s administration had the benefit of working with a robust economy. Would he have raised taxes had he presided over the economy that the Obama administration has been working with? Unlikely, in my opinion. Another example is gun control; Clinton presided during a time when gun control was still an active political issue. Today, talk of gun control is essentially a political non-issue, thanks to the NRA and the SCOTUS’s post-Clinton decision in DC v. Heller.

The same argument could apply to the other issues you raised. The political trends have generally shifted right since the Clinton administration.

I’m trying not to give either one an out based on conditions. I think Clinton would also have toughened up bank regulations if there had been a major financial meltdown right before he took office, but I’m still saying Obama was to the left of Clinton on those. Who knows, though, what Clinton would have done?

Two exceptions I’ll make, I guess:

Unemployment: Obama has extended unemployment benefits, whereas Clinton didn’t. Clinton, of course had no reason to, since employment was robust when he was in office. Arguably, Obama has been to the left of Clinton on this.

Drilling: Obama was all set to expand drilling in the Gulf Coast, but BP put a stop to that. Clinton: nothing? I don’t know his record there. I don’t know where to put them relative to each other.

[John_Mace]

Yeah, the economic climate is completely different, so the comparison isn’t a good one.

But as for military, are you forgetting the 4 days of bombing of Iraq and the months of bombing of Serbia under Clinton?

[RitterSport]

@John_Mace

Yeah, the economic climate is completely different, so the comparison isn’t a good one.

But as for military, are you forgetting the 4 days of bombing of Iraq and the months of bombing of Serbia under Clinton?

Well, yes, I guess so. However, we’ve had months of bombing in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Clinton never went to far as to endorse indefinite detentions and the terrorist hit list. I understand that things have changed since 9/11. Would you rather call this a tie between them? Fine by me.

What about gun control, taxes, healthcare, and welfare? It seems obvious to me that Obama is significantly to the right on most of those, and yet I don’t remember (I may have simply forgotten) Clinton being called a socialist, communist, and so on. Murderer and adulterer, maybe.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@ryanl

It’s somewhat tricky to compare their actions because of the stark economic and political differences between the Clinton and Obama eras. For example, Clinton’s administration had the benefit of working with a robust economy. Would he have raised taxes had he presided over the economy that the Obama administration has been working with? Unlikely, in my opinion. Another example is gun control; Clinton presided during a time when gun control was still an active political issue. Today, talk of gun control is essentially a political non-issue, thanks to the NRA and the SCOTUS’s post-Clinton decision in DC v. Heller.

The same argument could apply to the other issues you raised. The political trends have generally shifted right since the Clinton administration.

Not to mention Obama becoming President in the midst of two wars which Bill Clinton almost certainly would have prosecuted far more aggressively. Clinton’s the one who bombed both Iraq, Yugoslavia and the Sudan and accused George H. W. Bush of being weak on defense for not doing more in Yugoslavia and who spoke out vociferously in favor of the Iraq War which Obama opposed.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@RitterSport

Well, yes, I guess so. However, we’ve had months of bombing in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Clinton never went to far as to endorse indefinite detentions and the terrorist hit list. I understand that things have changed since 9/11. Would you rather call this a tie between them? Fine by me.

What about gun control, taxes, healthcare, and welfare? It seems obvious to me that Obama is significantly to the right on most of those, and yet I don’t remember (I may have simply forgotten) Clinton being called a socialist, communist, and so on. Murderer and adulterer, maybe.

Following the OKC bombings Clinton proposed his own version of the Patriot Act which was defeated by the Republicans who viewed it as too extreme.

I’m also not sure how Obama can be considered to the right of Bill Clinton on gun control just because he failed to get a Republican-controlled Congress to push through an assault weapons ban that Clinton needed a Democratic-controlled Congress to push through.

Also, when it came to welfare lots of people raked Clinton over the coals for his pushing for welfare reform which struck many liberals as anathema.

Clinton was also pro-death penalty while Obama opposes it.

There’s a reason Obama is more popular amongst the advocates for the poor then Clinton.

Finally, if you don’t remember Clinton being called a “socialist”, “communist” etc., then you just don’t remember the 90s that well, because Rush Limbaugh and the extreme right regularly accused him of being one.

[RitterSport]

@Ibn_Warraq

Following the OKC bombings Clinton proposed his own version of the Patriot Act which was defeated by the Republicans who viewed it as too extreme.

I’m also not sure how Obama can be considered to the right of Bill Clinton on gun control just because he failed to get a Republican-controlled Congress to push through an assault weapons ban that Clinton needed a Democratic-controlled Congress to push through.

Obama did nothing to further gun control, and in fact signed a law allowing guns in national parks.

Also, when it came to welfare lots of people raked Clinton over the coals for his pushing for welfare reform which struck many liberals as anathema.

Which Obama did nothing to overturn, and, in fact, is allowing more state control (a rightward move) in setting up the rules, as long as it provides no worse results than the nationwide rules.

Clinton was also pro-death penalty while Obama opposes it.

I’d like to see a cite on this – a quick search on Google revealed sites saying Obama is pro-death penalty, but they didn’t seem too trustworthy. I couldn’t find any reputable sites saying he’s against it, and in fact, has his own hit list.

There’s a reason Obama is more popular amongst the advocates for the poor then Clinton.

He is? What’s the reason?

Finally, if you don’t remember Clinton being called a “socialist”, “communist” etc., then you just don’t remember the 90s that well, because Rush Limbaugh and the extreme right regularly accused him of being one.

My impression is that politicians have actually been calling Obama that, not just right wing blowhards. I don’t really care about what Rush says, but I care more about what our elected representatives say. I did say, though, that I might have misremembered that.

[RitterSport]

I’m going to be away from a computer for sometime, but I would love to hear others’ opinions on this, if possible.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@RitterSport

Obama did nothing to further gun control, and in fact signed a law allowing guns in national parks.

Which Obama did nothing to overturn, and, in fact, is allowing more state control (a rightward move) in setting up the rules, as long as it provides no worse results than the nationwide rules.

I’d like to see a cite on this – a quick search on Google revealed sites saying Obama is pro-death penalty, but they didn’t seem too trustworthy. I couldn’t find any reputable sites saying he’s against it, and in fact, has his own hit list.

He is? What’s the reason?

My impression is that politicians have actually been calling Obama that, not just right wing blowhards. I don’t really care about what Rush says, but I care more about what our elected representatives say. I did say, though, that I might have misremembered that.

Obama opposed capital punishment while serving in Illinois. Clinton was the guy who paused his 1992 campaign to fly back to Arkansas to execute a mentally retarded black man who was so aware of what was happening to him that he refused to finish his last meal saying he wanted to “save the rest for later” which caused even his guards(who were by no means bleeding-hear liberals) to question the wisdom of executing him.

Beyond that, if you see no difference between executing a completely helpless man in prison and killing someone on the battlefield a la the killing of Yamamoto I’m not sure the point of the conversation.

[Bridget_Burke]

@RitterSport

Well, yes, I guess so. However, we’ve had months of bombing in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Clinton never went to far as to endorse indefinite detentions and the terrorist hit list. I understand that things have changed since 9/11. Would you rather call this a tie between them? Fine by me.

What about gun control, taxes, healthcare, and welfare? It seems obvious to me that Obama is significantly to the right on most of those, and yet I don’t remember (I may have simply forgotten) Clinton being called a socialist, communist, and so on. Murderer and adulterer, maybe.

His marital problems were between him & Hilary. Or should have been. Murderer?

Obama is being called Socialist, Nazi & Muslim because he’s black. He & Clinton are both more right leaning than I am, but I don’t regret voting for either & will gladly vote for Obama again. Even though, as I’m a Texan, I’m assured my vote won’t count.

What’s the purpose of this little exercise? Is Nader going to start a write-in campaign for all the disgruntled liberals?

[foolsguinea]

point of information: Clinton did not propose a unified single-payer plan. But I will stipulate that it was to the left of PPACA.

I think you’re right: Obama has acted in a more right-wing fashion.
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/08/americas-tory-president.html
But he is seen as further to the left because of what he* is*—mixed-race with a foreign parent.

It’s stupid but it’s probably what people think.

[foolsguinea]

Ibn Warraq, I find the equivalence of our present targets to Yamamoto, the commander-in-chief of the Imperial Japanese Combined Fleet, a bit much.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Ibn_Warraq

Obama opposed capital punishment while serving in Illinois. Clinton was the guy who paused his 1992 campaign to fly back to Arkansas to execute a mentally retarded black man who was so aware of what was happening to him that he refused to finish his last meal saying he wanted to “save the rest for later” which caused even his guards(who were by no means bleeding-hear liberals) to question the wisdom of executing him.

Beyond that, if you see no difference between executing a completely helpless man in prison and killing someone on the battlefield a la the killing of Yamamoto I’m not sure the point of the conversation.

Ritter, I apologize for the way I wrote the last paragraph. That was poorly worded and came across worse then I intended.

[dropzone]

I was going to take a cheap shot and point out that Obama is left-handed, but remembered that Bubba is, too. As was a disproportion of presidents the past 80 years, including Republicans.

There’s a CT in the making here. :eek:

[Ibn_Warraq]

@foolsguinea

Ibn Warraq, I find the equivalence of our present targets to Yamamoto, the commander-in-chief of the Imperial Japanese Combined Fleet, a bit much.

I don’t see why killing Yamamoto was more justifiable than the killing of Osama Bin Laden. If anything it strikes me as less since to the best of my knowledge Yamamoto ccommitted no war crimes.

Furthermore, unless soldiers attempt to surrender, they are fair game on the battlefield. For example the killing of sleeping soldiers aren’t war crimes.

Mujahids proclaim themselves to be soldiers and they deserve to be treated as such. To do less is to insult them and ignore their beliefs and values.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Bridget_Burke

His marital problems were between him & Hilary. Or should have been. Murderer?

Obama is being called Socialist, Nazi & Muslim because he’s black. He & Clinton are both more right leaning than I am, but I don’t regret voting for either & will gladly vote for Obama again. Even though, as I’m a Texan, I’m assured my vote won’t count.

What’s the purpose of this little exercise? Is Nader going to start a write-in campaign for all the disgruntled liberals?

So why was Clinton called a communist?

Again, I respectfully say that people who think Clinton faced less vitriol than Obama either weren’t old enough to remember the 90s or have forgotten what they were like.

I’d recommend they watch The Hunting of a President.

[RitterSport]

@Bridget_Burke

His marital problems were between him & Hilary. Or should have been. Murderer?

Obama is being called Socialist, Nazi & Muslim because he’s black. He & Clinton are both more right leaning than I am, but I don’t regret voting for either & will gladly vote for Obama again. Even though, as I’m a Texan, I’m assured my vote won’t count.

What’s the purpose of this little exercise? Is Nader going to start a write-in campaign for all the disgruntled liberals?

He was called a murderer (Vince Foster) and an adulterer, but I don’t recall communist/socialist. Hey, I’m on your side – the point of this exercise is for me to figure out why Obama has been accused of completely changing the nature of this country when Clinton wasn’t (to my memory). I’d like to think there are non-racist reasons for this – I’m like Obama, always giving people the benefit of the doubt.

@Ibn_Warraq

Ritter, I apologize for the way I wrote the last paragraph. That was poorly worded and came across worse then I intended.

No problem.

@Ibn_Warraq

So why was Clinton called a communist?

Again, I respectfully say that people who think Clinton faced less vitriol than Obama either weren’t old enough to remember the 90s or have forgotten what they were like.

I’d recommend they watch The Hunting of a President.

I agree that Clinton was the target of much vitriol. It was a ridiculous distraction, if you ask me. However, my recollection is that it was directed at his character as a person, not at his policies. I really don’t recall people throwing words around like communist and socialist, not from politicians anyway. And, I don’t remember people accusing Clinton of fundamentally changing the nature of the country, reducing incentives, making the USA into a welfare society.

It doesn’t make sense to me – on economic and immigration issues, Obama is squarely to Clinton’s right (he wants to raise taxes on a small portion of the US to Clinton’s levels, but leave tax rates for 80% or 90% of the population lower, he’s deporting people left and right and building up the border patrols).

Your opinion seems to be that Clinton was much more militarist than Obama – fine, I’ll accept your view on that. What about economic issues? That’s where Obama is taking the heat.

[John_Mace]

@foolsguinea

point of information: Clinton did not propose a unified single-payer plan. But I will stipulate that it was to the left of PPACA.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the legislation that Clinton didn’t pass with the one that Obama did pass. Obama made lots of compromises to get this through Congress. Had Clinton actually passed HCR, it would certainly have been “to the right” of what he proposed.