How "honest" are lawyers/attorneys?

I would tend to agree with this. ANAJD, but I did (and do) spend a significant part of my career providing consulting services to the legal industry and companies dealing with legal and regulatory matters. My experience and observations is that the concept of a lawyer’s “honesty” is fairly fuzzy. Courts and juries don’t make decisions based on a lawyer’s word. The lawyers present evidence in a manner that is designed to support their case.

It’s like people who associate a lawyer’s morality with the crime their client’s is accused of committing. Whether or not the lawyer believes his or her client committed the act is irrelevant. Their job is to argue the evidence presented by the prosecutor and create a reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury. If the prosecution can’t make their case, then that’s on them.

Similarly the notion of people getting off on “technicalities”. The entire body of law is “technicalities”. If evidence is not collected in the correct way, that brings into question whether it is legitimate.

This makes no sense. How can you as an attorney be certain that your client is going to kill somebody eventually?

If you were just a guy walking down the street, and you were sure somebody was going to kill someone eventually, what would you do? Why is your action or inaction more moral that the defense attorney who forces the prosecution to prove their case?

If you were a prosecutor, and you thought someone was obviously guilty, but your case was poor, would you manufacture fake evidence to put the defendant behind bar? If you were a cop and you thought a guy you arrested was a scumbag, would you plant drugs on them? What’s more important, getting this guy off the streets, or being an honest cop?

Defense attorneys aren’t allowed to lie. They aren’t allowed to allow their clients to lie, either. Are most of the people charged with crimes guilty of something or other? Sure, in most cases. The alternative would be to believe that over half the time the cops and prosecutors are trying to put innocent people behind bars. I don’t believe that’s the case. So the people in court often deserve to be there. But it’s absolutely not the job of the defense attorney to get an acquittal for their client. It’s their job to present the best defense they can and arrange the best outcome for their client. In most cases this will not result in an acquittal for the client, because if the evidence wasn’t there the prosecution wouldn’t have bothered bringing the case.

So what’s the problem?

I disagree with the statement I’ve bolded.

If I’m acting as defence counsel, my primary ethical obligation is to carry out my client’s instructions.

Suppose I think I have a really good chance of acquittal, but if I’m wrong the client’s facing 15 years in jail.

But the Crown is offering a plea to a lesser charge with a much lighter sentence.

My ethical obligation is not “I’m deciding we’re going to trial.”

My obligation is to put both options to my client, explain the pros and cons of each, then ask my client what he wants me to do.

If he says, “Take the plea,” even though I’ve told him we have a good chance at trial, that’s the client’s decision. My ethical obligation then is to do my best to get a good plea arrangement, even if in my Perry Mason heart I’m convinced I could secure an acquittal.

ETA: forgot that the quote function would strip out the quotes from Shodan’s post. On my phone and can’t copy and paste to put the quotes back in.

There are in Canada. If you get a lawyer’s bill and you think you’ve been overcharged, you have a right to ask the court to review it. The court appoints one of its own officers to conduct a hearing with the lawyer and client present, and the lawyer has to defend the bill. The court official has the statutory authority to reduce the bill if the client shows a good reason why it’s excessive.

I’ve never had a bill assessed, but I’ve heard through the grapevine that some court officers will generally whack some charges off the bill almost as a matter of course.

In my jurisdiction, yes there are, and they are quite effective.

The *Legal Profession Act 2007 *(Qld) regulates the costs regime in Queensland. We are also governed by the Australian Solicitors Conduct Rules and general consumer protection legislation such as the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth). The other states have similar regimes with slight variations (other than South Australia).

Very broadly speaking (excluding things like sophisticated clients), a law firm has to disclose certain things to a client before being retained. Disclosure has to be in writing.

In addition to disclosure, law firm has to enter into a costs agreement with a client, which should, among other things:

[ul]
[li]be in writing[/li][li]set out the scope of work;[/li][li]set out a reasonable estimate of the fees; and[/li][li]set out the basis on which the firm will charge (such as time, fixed fee, scale, etc)[/li][/ul]

Additional disclosure and agreement requirements are in place for things like personal injuries work, conditional fee agreements (eg no-win no fee), cost uplifts.

There are also strict rules regarding charging outlays and disbursements.

The act also regulates the form of the bills and the information that they must include.

If the above is not done properly, then a client may not have to pay a bill until it is assessed.

The Civil and Administrative Tribunal and the Courts also have jurisdiction to deal with costs issues, and the Legal Services Commission is an independent office under the Act which deals with disciplinary matters.

All in all, the legal profession (in Australia at least) is more regulated than pretty much any other profession when it comes to costs and billing.

In practice, consumers are more sophisticated than ever when it comes to billing, and for the type of work I mostly do I am able to offer fixed fee services. Things like litigation tend to still be time costed because of the difficulties in estimating how much time it will take and because of the costs assessment regime.

I gave this as an example of how I thought (though I’m getting mixed impressions from this thread) testimony goes. Don’t ask, don’t tell. I this case, I spoke with the complete honesty I strive for. If I saw him smoke meth even once (which ironically I did after I was called to HR) I would have said “Yes, I saw him smoke what I believe was meth once”. If I smoked it with him, I would had said, “Yes, I know he smoked meth, because I smoked it with him.”

I’ve decided long ago, that I rather die for telling the truth, than live telling a lie.

BTW, if I committed a crime serious enough to require jail time and I was certain in my heart that the charge was correct (e.g. murder one), I would NOT seek a reduced sentence or acquittal. I would stand before the judge, bow my head in shame and plead guilty as charged.

As the song from Barretta said “Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time.”

No – I am characterizing clerical and technical mistakes as clerical and technical mistakes. A Statie here pulled over someone for speeding (based on their speedometer) and weaving and found a cache of drugs. The video showed the weaving to be borderline and the speedometer in the patrol unit had not been calibrated that day. As a result it became an improper stop (no probable cause) and the drug case basically got thrown out. The man had one damn fine attorney and he’ll probably be back selling drugs again ------ if he isn’t back at it already.

Yes – police lie, DAs cheat, and there has been a Pope or three with less than stellar reputations. But even given all that in our society they have the home court advantage to me and quite a few other people. A good defense attorney plays his game and can win; if we like that particular win or not.

You do understand that mandatory sentencing is relatively rare? Would you not make any submissions in relation to sentencing, nothwithstanding that there are a wide variety of matters that a judge can take into account when sentencing?

People really have no idea what most lawyers actually do. I mean, what their day-to-day jobs actually consist of.

Only a small percentage of lawyers go to court. Far more basically help people and companies carry out their activities – drafting agreements, resolving disputes without going to court, advising people how to navigate the maze of regulations necessary to get anything significant done, etc.

It’s a valuable set of services to be sure, and lawyers are often resented because those services are not cheap, and because they generally don’t produce anything tangible that the average person can understand – paying the wages of a star architect to build (for example) a fancy hospital ‘makes sense’ to the average folk, because they can see the building she or he planned when it is built, and judge the skill that went into it; they cannot easily judge the skill that went into arranging the corporate and regulatory issues necessary for the hospital to exist, since such matters are invisible to them. Yet the latter is just as necessary as the former, if you want a hospital.

As for inherent honesty – they are like accountants in this regard: they work for a client, they are result-oriented, and they are bound by professional ethics. Obviously they have various temptations to ‘cheat’ - either for their own gain, or to the benefit of their client; but such cheating, just like cheating anywhere, brings with it the risk of ruin – and accountants ‘cheating’ on behalf of clients is actually a pretty bad problem, as some massive scandals demonstrate … http://www.accounting-degree.org/scandals/

Yet the cultural meme that ‘all accountants are dishonest’ never caught hold - people tend to rationally understand that some accountants are dishonest and others, the majority, are honest.

In reality, most, in both professions, are honest - which only makes sense, even if one assumes that they aren’t motivated by conscience: they want to be working for a long time, reputation is important in these businesses. Cheating may lead to short-term gain but it is not worth the risk.

It’s like infrastructure design. If the job is well done you get no recognition whatsoever.

You’re characterizing a cop not actually having probable cause as a ‘technical mistake’ (or maybe a ‘clerical mistake?’). I would say that depriving a person of their freedom and threatening them with deadly force without a proper justification is more than a ‘technical mistake’, and is instead a significant breach of the law and of the person’s civil rights. If the cop is detaining and searching people using faulty equipment that’s not being maintained as the law says it should, I don’t see how the person who points out that the cops are not using proper equipment is dishonest.

Exactly.

Screw it up, and that fact becomes obvious to everyone, though. :smiley: And there are lots of ways to screw it up!

And I would say the transportation and sale of fentanyl-mixed heroin is a significant breach of the law and society’s rights. Its deprived several co-workers and other people I know of life; and I don’t know as we can call a casket and grave as being all that “free”. So clearly our mileage varies. Like all things honesty comes down to the eyes of the beholder in a specific circumstance so sometimes we humans just have to agree to disagree.

Sorry I’m late to the party. Criminal defense attorney here (I’ve done other kinds of law - transactional stuff like real estate and commercial contracts - but this is by far the most interesting and fun job I’ve had). A lot of good stuff has been said, but I won’t try to quote it all. Instead, just my two cents:

  1. I sleep quite good at night, thank you very much (well, depending on how much the dogs are pushing me to the edge of the bed). Most of my job involves trying to help people through the justice system. They aren’t going to “get away” with anything, since an overwhelming majority of cases result in a plea. Rather, I’ll guide them through the process and help them ensure that their rights are respected.

But they are bad dudes, you say? Not necessarily. Most criminal defense clients are charged with domestic disturbances or DUIs, which is to say that they come from all walks of life, across the sociopolitical spectrum. They just got caught up in one of (if not the) worst nights of their life. It’s not at all indicative of who they usually are.

And if it is? Well, is a doctor criticized for trying to treat an unhealthy person who makes bad choices about smoking, junk food, or lethargy? I counsel my clients, and try to help them, but it’s not my fault if they are their own worst enemy.

  1. As has been noted, my job is to ensure integrity in the process. As a friend once told me, she represents “rights” more than “people”. I take pride in holding the government’s feet to the fire and making sure they follow and respect the law. If they do, and the facts add up, they will convict the person accused. But cutting corners to get the right result (i.e. the “ends justify the means”) puts us all at risk.

You may be inclined to say that’s ridiculous, because it means that a guilty person might walk. Well, for one, illegally obtained evidence doesn’t always destroy the entire case (e.g. let’s say the police illegally searched for, and found, the gun that was used. It can’t be introduced at trial. It doesn’t mean that the receipt for its purchase, the surveillance camera footage showing him looking at it, or the testimony of his friend that he showed it to him can’t be introduced).

But, more fundamentally, this is a fair and workable solution to the risk that police overstep their bounds and start breaking into houses on a hunch or roughing people up in furtherance of their confession. No penalty for this behavior means police have no disincentive to follow the law. But personal liability for overstepping the law unfairly puts the onus on the officer, in the heat of the moment, to account for legal debate, and makes insufficient allowance for mistakes or good faith efforts. Suppression is the best way to strike this balance, in my opinion.

  1. A lot of lawyers say that they don’t want to know if their clients did the act. I do! Why waste my time trying to tack down loose ends that aren’t real? I would rather deal with what the evidence actually reveals.

But doesn’t that make me dishonest or unethical if I take the case to trial? I don’t think so. As an officer of the court, I am not allowed to lie to the tribunal. Nor can ask somebody else questions that I know will elicit a lie. But that doesn’t mean I am not supposed to make the state prove its allegations, and it doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t point out flaws in their theories, or methodology, or proof, when it appears (and, practically speaking, this usually happens before trial, in the midst of negotiating a realistic plea)

The OJ trial? The prosecution blew that one. The evidence should have been overwhelming.

  1. You have cases where there’s no doubt what happened, and cases where the evidence is ambiguous. Either way, your job is to advocate for your client

Damning evidence: As the defendant’s lawyer, you are trying to mitigate the damage. For those worrying about the evil molester caught dead to rites who walks away scot free, don’t. Some cases shouldn’t go to trial, and their lawyer’s job may be explaining to them why agreeing to 20 years in prison now is far better than risking a life sentence if it ends up before a jury.

Ambiguous evidence: Maybe the ultimate facts aren’t in dispute (my guy shot into a car, killing one person and injuring another), but the context is (was he in fear for his life?). Or we know something happened (there was a fight between a husband and his wife; stuff was broken) but we don’t know what it was (he said she kicked him while he was taking a nap and he pushed her away; she said that he punched her when she went to ask him a question). In those cases, my job is to give my client the benefit of the doubt, and to present his (or her side).

A big part of the psyche of a criminal defense lawyer is to compartmentalize. Just because a person has done a bad thing doesn’t mean that they did all the bad things. Just because my client committed a crime doesn’t mean that the police had the authority to violate his rights. Just because my client is a drug addict with mental health issues doesn’t mean that he isn’t entitled to dignity and respect.

This is how it is possible to make these arguments about ambiguous evidence. Sure, my client - who is ostensibly hetero - had a sexual encounter with his (ostensibly straight) co-worker. But that doesn’t necessarily mean he raped him - the other guy could have been willing.

Sure, my client - who was accused of getting into an accident while drunk - had a blood alcohol above .1 when the cops located him 30 minutes later. But maybe he went home and did a shot to calm his nerves; it doesn’t necessarily mean he was drunk at the time of the accident.

Sure, my client knew about the bank robbery after it happened. Yeah, he got some money from the robbers that he spent on a new car right after the crime. But there’s no evidence that he was actually in the bank at the time of the deed. (So charge him with accessory after the fact, not the break-in).

Note: Just because these possibilities exist doesn’t mean that they happened. But it’s not my job to prove what didn’t happen. Instead, it’s the prosecutor’s job to establish what did happen. But the process works best when there’s somebody playing devil’s advocate to test that theory. (Ultimately, juries are surprising prescient about deciding what is the most reasonable explanation, and deciding fairly and according to the law).

I apologize for shamelessly/shamefully dismissing all lawyers/attorneys as crooks, of course they’re not.

That said, I have to wonder whether someone like Giuliani is being honest with himself and the public. As I asked before, how do I know a particular lawyer is “honest”.

Just came to mind. Are lawyers like doctors where I can get a second opinion or third opinion without fully dismissing the first and returning?

There seem to be some lawyers who get a thrill out of extracting injustice due to a technicality. And the worse the injustice and the more trivial the technicality, the buzzier the schadenfreude.

But that comes to arguing that constitutional requirements can be ignored for bad dudes.

So complying with the Constitution, the law that protects us all, is “extracting injustice”?

Tell me, what do you mean by a technicality? Because any time we have a thread about “technicalities” it usually turns out to be a decision based on a breach of constitutional or statute law designed to ensure that we live in constitutional democracies rather than a police state.