How horrible are biker gangs really? And: are undercover investigations worth it?

Your personal experience is coming from Brazil, and (I assume) you’re asking about the North American situation.

Motorcycle clubs are different from drug cartels in two ways:

  1. They all like to ride - by definition. It may seem unusual for rival gangs to party together, but if there’s a big bike rally, of course groups of people that like to ride are going to go. At most of these, the clubs will leave their grudges aside (sometimes even leaving their colours behind) in the interest of having a good time. Sometimes, however, as they’re worried about in Nova Scotia, these events are where statements are made.

  2. They know they are being closely followed by police at all times, so they have to keep their hands clean. Puppet clubs, wannabes, hang-arounds, and prospects take care of the dirty work, while the members run things behind the scenes.

Some decent reads to get you started:

A lot of anecdotal evidence in this thread indicates that club members are nice guys, and 99% of the time, they are. They don’t want any heat from the police, and are especially careful not to poop where they eat. If you abide by the golden rule (do unto others…) you have nothing to worry about. If you are disrespectful, or try to play in their world, safety not guaranteed.

1 and 2 are exactly right in my experience. They usually abide by neutral territory rules. For instance no one wants to screw up Sturgis. One of the big beefs I became involved in happened after a charity run for a kid with cancer. They waited till after the event at a different location to get violent.

Yeah, it’s the 1% that gives them a bad name.

There’s a motorcycle memorial park near here, with a clubhouse and an area where they have biker weddings on occasion. Long lines of Harley-type cycles often pass my house, as it is a challenging, winding road. They never speed and seem to respect the road more than some drivers I see, like local repairmen who barrel down the narrow road with abandon in their vans.

And the gangs I know personally just want to ride and socialize. They aren’t gathering for nefarious purposes.

If ever I hear a speeding cycle, you can bet it’s a single, juvenile-type dude with a rice rocket he just got and wants to show off. It’s usually his last ride, because if he doesn’t run into a tree, he will find a cop waiting at either end of this road. All I have to do is make a single phone call and in 6 minutes and 3 miles, it’s all over.

And who decides what constitutes their world - them? What if they decide your legitimate business fits into their world, and should be taxed. Will the golden rule protect you then?

Who cares that 99% of the time they are apparently nice guys - 1% of the time they are brutal, vicious thugs who further their criminality with violence, and who distribute life-destroying drugs and weapons for personal profit.

It doesn’t matter about some charitable work done as a smokescreen, or a veneer of restraint exhibited at public events - these prove nothing. The reality is murder, assault, rape (in-gang sexual violence is commonly used as punishment), robbery, racketeering and dealing drugs/arms. And anyone who takes a patch (for whatever reason) implicitly condones those activities.

You didn’t read the links I posted, did you?

They are violent and dangerous, IF you step into their realm.

“Their world” doesn’t mean driving by patched members on the highway, or walking past a clubhouse. “Their world” means thinking you’re Mr. Toughguy and looking for trouble at one of their hangouts. “Their world” means thinking you’re Tony Montana, moving a few ounces of product. “Their world” means setting up shop - legitimate or not - on their territory.

If you’re at a bike rally, and mind your business, you are not likely to experience much violence or danger.

It’s important to keep in mind though that some seemingly innocent question may be taken as crossing a boundary. Depending on the club and the particular local charter, seemingly innocuous inquiries may be taken as meddlesome and inappropriate.[sup]1[/sup]. It may also be seen as rude to attempt to join a conversation without being asked.
[sup]1[/sup]For example see the website of the Daly City HAMC chapter, here, and go to the FAQs. However, attitudes on such inquiries seem to be highly variable; Sonny Barger himself has provided the world with the answers to some of these questions in his autobiography.

It’s also worth remembering that the term “motorcycle club” or MC includes clubs that aren’t involved in any criminal activity at all, but they do follow many of the same practices and procedures as OMCs with regard to how they are structured and how new members are taken in. The would-be member usually begins by participating in club events that are open to new prospects and other non-members; if he hits it off with the members he is asked to join as a prospect or probationary member. Eventually the club or chapter votes on whether the prospect should become a full member; as with OMCs, only then can he wear the full patch.

For an interesting example see the website of the San Francisco MC, here.

Their world also means wearing their logos or gear without permission. The HA is very good at marketing and do sell merchandise but it is very clear that they are selling supporter gear which is separate than what members wear. Don’t get caught wearing a Mean Machine logo without permission.

And here is the problem - how does anyone know what defines “Their World” - they don’t put up signs. People sink their lives into businesses, and the gangs just turn up an expect a cut, because you are in “Their World”. When the Outlaws open fire on Hells Angels riders on a busy public motorway (the M40), how is it that the entire section of the motorway becomes “Their World”. When that jeep in Montreal blew up, how was it that an 11 year old kid walking by entered “Their World”.

You keep talking as if there is some magical line that if you don’t cross you won’t get in trouble with the gangs. That is bullshit. The OMGs are criminal organisations who will use whatever means to further their ends, and anyone who crosses their path could be a victim.

I looked at that FAQ linked above - and smiled at the outrage expressed that some patched members could not travel to New Zealand because their visas were denied as members of a criminal group. The criminal MGs already in NZ don’t need the support of the criminals from the US to make lives a misery, and they don’t need any more help.

Agreed.
Not to start a separate debate, but there is due diligence involved in starting a business, and part of that (while not official, or legitimately recognized) would be to make sure you won’t be competing with a business owned by organized crime. It’s pretty common knowledge, locally at least, which storefronts are OMC owned.

The magical line I am talking about will not protect you from being collateral damage in an attack. I would file that under “poop happens” or “wrong place, wrong time”. It will, however, keep you out of the trunk of a car, keep you off the bottom of the river, keep you from becoming pitbull doodoo, etc.

Agreed, but if you’re going to put up the fron that you are not a criminal, you have to at least ACT outraged when you are treated like one.

It’s the same in the Netherlands. The public feels that the MC are involved in low-level crime (often as muscle or as a hired intimidating threat). And the underworld seems to associate with them. And that their head quarters are no-go areas, even for the police. But criminal investigations usually yield little or no result.

The Dutch feel the same about camp dwellers. There is a subculture in the Netherlands of people preferring to live together in mobile homes. That is not a temporary situation for the poor, like it is in the US. But over here, living in (often lager and gaudy) mobile homes parked together in small trailer parks, is done als a cultural choice, by generations after another. The “campers” are seen by the Dutch public as unrespectful of normal law and order, and they are seen by many as social parasites. Oddly enough, it is not an ethnic thing; campers are ethnic 100% Dutch, nothing gypsy-ish about them. Many of the camp dwellers make their money by operating car junk yards, usually not conforming to regulations. Or by growing pot in barns. Here’s a picture of such a “woonwagenkamp”

It’s the patch, or any of its parts, that they really don’t want non-members to wear. That’s fair enough, in my opinion.

Fair enough? No article of clothing should get you beat up or worse.

One of my friends was told to watch out (by an apparently bona fide HA member) because he was wearing a Sons of Anarchy hoodie while out riding his Harley. :dubious:

How insecure do you have to be to be threatened by a TV show.

But it was in the South of England, where I suspect the local HA chapter probably call themselves Hades Angelicus :wink:

I meant only that they are within their rights in not wanting their insignia to be worn by non-members.

I guess much depends on your prior expectations with respect to questions of the degree to which outlaw motorcycle gangs (OMCGs) behave badly. Anyone can say that X is not as bad as I had gathered from popular culture. That does not mean X is not bad, it is merely a statement about your expectations.

There is a clear demarcation to be drawn between OMCGs and perfectly legitimate bike clubs like the BMW owners association. Middle aged lawyers and bankers enjoying the frisson of a walk on the wild side by buying a vintage Triumph or Norton are not what we are talking about here.

Plainly OMCGs are a threat to social order. They have a substantial role in drug distribution, and that leads to turf wars and other forms of violence (such as violence associated with collection of illicit debts). Another key driver of violence is perceived treachery. Drug people are regularly informing police about the operations of their rivals in order to cut out competition.

Recognising that OMCGs are often (but not always) middlemen does not minimise their role. Frequently, middlemen are the biggest players in a chain of distribution. Big supermarket chains are vastly bigger and more significant enterprises than many of their suppliers, for example.

Obviously enough, most of the time OMCG members are occupied with making money, legally or otherwise. Obviously, they recognise that violence and murder are bad for business. But that recognition is only one driver of behaviour. If there were no others, there would never be criminal violence. But there are others - poor impulse control, a certain hypersensitivity to perceived disrespect, and a need to enforce internal political and hierarchical authority are among them.

Even the Economic Man argument about violence being bad for business is countered by other Economic Man arguments. A very cheap alternative to actual violence is merely to credibly threaten violence. Very frequently it has the same effect, and is pretty much cost free. But to maintain the credibility of the threat, it is necessary sometimes to act on it. This is why debtors are sometimes killed for failure to pay, even though it might seem irrational to do so from the perspective that it eliminates the possibility of that particular debt ever being repaid. It is done “to encourage the others”. OMCGs have learned the dual skills of projecting menace and enforcing omertà. If their predominant interests were enjoying bikes and fresh air, why are these things such dominant aspects of their culture?

For the above reasons, most OMCGs are not running about killing other people willy nilly, any more than police kill villains at anything like the rate they appear to in TV shows. But that does not mean there is no violence. Nor does it mean that the fact that most violence is directed to other members of the criminal world make it OK. Even if you accept that it is, the rate at which collateral damage occurs is absolutely unacceptable.

Equally, an attitude of “if you don’t poke the bear you’ll be fine” only serves to enable the general expansion of crime into more and more otherwise legitimate undertakings. It is a Bad Thing socially, economically and in every other way for there to be areas of otherwise legitimate business that legitimate competitors fear to enter because of intimidation. Historically, organised crime starts with marginalised business like tattoo parlours that no-one cares much about, but moves into essential services like garbage collection and transport, by which time it is very difficult to wind back. It seeks to create monopolies. Worse, it has the effect of creating a sense of resignation that menace is simply a tool of business in some sectors of the economy. IMHO, that should be vigorously challenged.

I would expect that there is widespread recognition that OMCG activities like highly publicised delivering of cuddly toys to sick kiddies is quite cynical and manipulative brand management. The mere fact that not every (or even most) interaction with the straight world is associated with violence or menace does not mean anything much. Of course they are capable of being polite on their own terms. It would be impossibly exhausting and distracting to be permanently angry in every interaction. That should not serve to distract from the real threat they represent.

As to enforcement, OMCGs are “hardened targets”. They are neither naive nor passive players in the investigative process. They are among the most difficult organisations to inject an undercover police officer into. The expectation that doing so will result in provably uncovering all the activity of a particular OMCG is optimistic. But the purpose of investigative operations is not just to gain evidence for prosecutions (although that is a dominant purpose), it is to make the environment in which OMCGs operate so hostile to their activities that their capacity to function is severely compromised. Paranoia and the injection of energy into counter-investigation radically reduces their ability to freely undertake unlawful activity.

99% of riders in toy runs are not outlaw bikers or members of the MC’s that you are talking about.

They are in my jurisdiction.