How horrible are biker gangs really? And: are undercover investigations worth it?

I recently read “Under and Alone” by William Queen, about an ATF agent who infiltrated the Mongols motorcycle gang. It led me to think some more about two questions I’ve wondered before. Not sure if it fits best as a GQ, GD, or IMHO thread – mods, move as you see fit.

  1. How dangerous/violent/criminal are motorcycle gangs really?

By “motorcycle gangs”, I’m specifically referring to self-declared 1%er/”outlaw” motorcycle clubs that are considered as gangs or organised criminal organisations by law enforcement – such as the Hells Angels, Mongols, Vagos, Sons of Silence, Bandidos, Outlaws, etc. As a motorcyclist myself, I’m perfectly aware that most MCs are just social organisations, often with a positive mission behind them.

I ask because this book repeatedly claims that the Mongols are the most violent motorcycle gang in the USA, but the two-year infiltration by the ATF agent, who even became a club officer in his chapter, ultimately led only to a handful of convictions on relatively minor offenses – drug offences, possession of unregistered firearms, receiving stolen goods, etc. – and only one or two murder charges. It reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson’s portrayal of the Hells Angels as people who are certainly rowdy and even dangerous if provoked, but whose depiction as ultraviolent criminals delighting in random unprovoked violence is undeserved, almost ridiculous. (that’s just from summaries of his writing. Haven’t read the book.) The writer certainly mentions a number of violent criminals in the Mongols, but glosses over many other gang members who he describes as “laid-back” and who may not have any criminal history.

Furthermore, you’d expect the worst violence from turf wars between gangs. I’ve been in a place where the war between the Hells Angels and the Bandidos reached the level of using rocket launchers, so I’m used to the press about biker gang wars. However, at the end of the book above, there’s a confrontation between the Mongol Army and their nemesis the Hells Angels MC at a biker meet (Sturgis?) – which is just a stare-off that ends in club presidents agreeing to relax and keep the peace. Hardly terrifying stuff.

So: to what extent are motorcycle gangs actually dangerous organised criminal organisations? Is it really fair to lump them in with e.g. the Mara Salvatrucha, Mexican drug cartels, and the Mafia? Might the Hells Angels actually be telling the truth with their line that criminal activities by Angels are the members’ own responsibility, and aren’t club business or officially sanctioned?

  1. Are long-term undercover police investigations worth it?

The book above led to a number of convictions, but very little “serious” stuff. Some illegal guns get purchased by the ATF, taking them off the street, as well as some small quantities of drugs. Evidence is collected on motorcycle theft, but little happens regarding the thefts themselves.

On the other hand, the ATF has to pay for all the drug and weapons purchases (money which I suppose was never recovered – so spent by criminals), pay the salary, benefits, etc. of the undercover agent, and the salary, benefits etc. of his support team, which is at least one permanent full-time agent. Did they get decent return on their money, compared to normal operations?

Also, is this a high opportunity cost? That is, might these agents be able to get similar or better results from conventional investigations? There’s also the great personal cost to the undercover agent – the psychological pressure and stress from knowing that if his cover’s blown, he’s likely to wind up dead, and his inability to lead a “normal” life (indeed, he loses his girlfriend and neglects his children during the investigation) – is this really worth it?

Thanks for any and all input!

The book Freakonomics has a section about a different kind of criminal organization - a drug gang - but I think it’s informative.

Basically, all out violence is bad for business, and the leaders of the gang are in it for the money. So, they could have a turf war with another gang, but then there’s payouts to the family of anyone that dies, payouts to anyone that gets injured, payoffs to cops to look the other way, lower profits from increased law enforcement pressure… it’s not worth it.

And in the drug ring in Freakonomics, the guys at the bottom of the totem pole are making less than minimum wage. Do you think the fry boy at McDonald’s is going to risk his life to stop a robbery? The bottom guy in the motorcycle gang doesn’t want to put his life on the line for the piddly stuff he gets either.

Can they be violent? Sure. But I think most of the gangs have wised up that violence is not worth it. While I wouldn’t intentionally piss off a crew of Hell’s Angels, I wouldn’t worry about them if they passed me on the highway either.

I think the point about getting low level arrests is to disrupt the gang more than close it down, that would require a RICO or similar. So yes the arrests are generally worth it even if it only makes it harder for them to operate.

Hunter S Thompson wrote his book in a different century and the outlaw gangs have morphed but like most crims they only fight with other crims. The issue of Sturgis is easy, they have a temporary truce at these types of events. We see in Aus a lot when large bike shows are on there is no fighting allowed. They still snort and stomp like penned up bulls but that’s about it.

This is of course from someone elses mouth, from what I understand they are all decent law abiding gentlemen.

Moved from General Questions to IMHO.

samclem, moderator

The criminal gangs are organized crime. Just like the mafia. Just like the Blood and Crips and Latin Kings. They made money through drug manufacture and sales, prostitution and murder for hire. I guess if investigating such things is worth it is a matter of opinion.

I guess it’s different in different areas, but practically every Harley/leathers type biker I see on the road these days appears to be about my age (55) or older. I haven’t seen a young Harley rider in some time.

I read the book and thought the same thing. This major investigation and this is what you have to show for it? IIRC, Queen’s life was turned upside down as a result of the case. Ask him if it was worth it. No bunch of criminals would be worth ruining my marriage/family/personal life over. I spent more than 25 years locking up bad guys but often put my personal life first. Which may explain why I never advanced beyond the rank of Sergeant.

I am guessing it is due to two things:

  1. The cost of a HD motorcycle these days. Wow!
  2. Most young riders want crotch rockets.

I have AA acquaintances in a group of “bikers in recovery” that is associated with the Outlaws. As the criminal Outlaws are strongly associated with the meth trade it seems like an odd choice to be your parent club.

The Pagans are the dominant MC where I live but their numbers appear to be pretty low. They do seem to have a fairly steady influx of younger members. They usually don’t create problems for “citizens” unless they are somehow disrespected or perceive that they were. Then they can get pretty violent pretty quick. Axe handles are their traditional weapon of choice. Like someone else said, drawing heat is bad for business and ruins all the “fun”.

So … what does your comment have to do with the OP, which was about the dangerous 1%-er biker gangs?

I worked in Wall, SD for several years and when the Sturgis rally was going on I saw plenty of the bike gangs (Hell’s Angels, even saw some from the chapter in England; Bandidos; Sons of Silence) and I would rather have to deal with 10 of them to 1 ‘citizen’ any day. By and large, they were polite and respectful and knew what the hell they were doing. I even had to kick some Hell’s Angels out of the car wash at closing time one night and didn’t get a peep out of them. They just got up and left.

Biker Gangs as an organized & dangerous criminal element seem to be more of a problem in Canada these days than here in the US.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/biker-gang-turf-war-horizon-warn-police-094446053.html

Oops! Did I ring the off topic alarm? Thanks for keeping a weather eye on that!

It was a tangential comment expressing a degree of surprise that there are areas in the US where younger men involved in criminal activity are making the choice to ride Harleys, a bike I have rarely see anyone under 40 or 50 riding for the past 10 years.

I’ve read summaries of that section too (the book is on my reading list, but, well, so are lots of other books). It’s a great insight to why organised crime isn’t as violent as the stereotype - but in that sense it supports the idea that assuming 1%ers are violent loons is wrong, surely?

I think the investigation in the book cited DID end in a RICO prosecution. Still doesn’t seem to have had much effect.

Do you have a few cites? In the two-year Mongol investigation, there was no case made regarding murder for hire, none re: prostitution or drug manufacture IIRC, and a handful for drug sales for rather small amounts. Saying the Mongols are then “just like the mafia” seems a stretch, seeing that mobsters or drug cartels are fairly frequently caught with many kilos of coke/heroin etc.

That’s what I was thinking. Long-term undercover operations seem very inhumane, and I’m not convinced that similar results couldn’t be gained by conventional (and cheaper) means.

Thanks for bringing a cite - but I’m not sure this one supports a thesis of the Hells Angels being an “organized & dangerous criminal element”. OK, so the authorities are worried that there’ll be turf war between the Hells Angels and the Bacchus.

But near the end of the article: “Police expect members of the Gate Keepers, the Hells Angels and the Bacchus clubs to attend a party celebrating the anniversary of the Hells Angels-friendly Darksiders club in Dartmouth”

So they hate each other so much that they’re partying together? When’s the last time Los Zetas partied with the Sinaloa Cartel?

I really appreciate everyone’s comments and contributions. But I’ve yet to see any firm evidence that I should be deeply terrified of biker violence or organised criminality around their hangouts. (Though, yes, many individual members may have lengthy and disturbing rap sheets.)

Here in Rio de Janeiro I’ve seen a few Hells Angels once or twice. The only times they’ve popped up online is when they’re partying with other 99%er clubs. I think they’re even affiliated and registered with the state motorcyclists’ association. (and yes, as a harley or other cruiser is an expensive luxury here, biker club members are nothing like members of drug gangs like Comando Vermelho.)

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ocgs/gangs/motorcycle.html

They’re pretty much daring the government to crack down on them from their constant involvement in the drug trade and other crimes, mostly somewhat minor like theft, not to mention instilling fear in the populace through their appearance and behavior. They do commit murders, but it seems like they’re more likely to kill other criminals than innocent parties.

I’d think that they’re like any criminal organization in that they can be targeted by the government for continuing investigation, unlike lone or sporadically associated criminals. The result is that a few agents are involved in the investigation of many crimes, and any big arrests make good headlines. Everybody wins. Well, everyone except the victims and the bikers who get caught.

Thanks Loach for the cite. I figure that’s a pretty reliable source that there’s genuine organised criminality behind appearances.

TriPolar, that all makes sense, but it implies the flow (bikers look like criminals) -> (bikers get investigated by law enforcement) -> (law enforcement proves bikers in a gang are criminals and brings down the gang). Which would mean that turning a biker gang into an organised crime racket is stupid - but also supports my belief that, generally speaking, criminals are idiots.

On the other hand, if in-depth investigation leads to so few results, maybe it’s not so stupid in the end after all. The Hells Angels et al are still strong and apparently making a fortune off merchandising.

I think the key here is that a relatively small group does the investigation of a large group, making it economical. I don’t have the figures though, if the results are too minor, then it is a waste of money. I think more likely it leads to some other arrests from outside the biker gangs. My impression is that they’re mostly middle men in the drug game.

Purely anecdote but I tended bad in and around Chicago in some not so niceplaces and the bikers were polite and would if anything break up fight between “citizens”.
I’m sure it didn’t hurt that we routinely turned a blind eye to their fundraising activities.