Off-Topic Hidden by WE?
Isn’t @YWTF TERF friendly?
Keep it to posts not personal.
What are the policy losses you’re referring to here?
…now hold on a second there. You’ve literally quoted me as asking the question “I don’t know what you mean…” This isn’t about what I am seeing or not seeing. I was specifically asking up2eleven what they were seeing.
If they called me out for posts that I’ve made in this thread (as you’ve just done) , then we could actually some-what advance the debate. But now that you have, shall we get into it, then?
Oh no! It looks like you don’t actually want this debate.
You seem convinced that I’m absolutist and intolerant. You think I absolutely will not tolerate views to the contrary.
And I mean: that’s just fine. You can think whatever it is you want about me.
But my position on this isn’t one based out of ignorance. Earlier you challenged me to “be a bit more specific.” So I responded with this:
I provided cites. I provided quotes. I spent time researching. And I’ve devoted a considerable amount of time off-board to learning about all of this.
So whatever absolutist position you think I might hold, at the very least its one that is informed by the facts.
I make no secret of the fact that over the last couple of years I’ve become more absolutist on this. And the reason for that because I’ve been watching, in real time, how quickly anti-trans rhetoric has transformed from “just asking questions” into a worldwide wave of anti-trans legislation and real life danger.
So I’m going to be throwing the ball back into your court. I’ve done the work you asked me to do. I’ve made my case on just some of the ways that JK Rowling is using her power, her money, her influence to help take away rights from transgender people.
Not convinced yet? Just let me know and I’ll find some more evidence.
Intolerant of any shades of gray on the subject? Nope. I’ve examined the “shades of gray.” I’ve done deep dives into the “shades of gray.” I’ve considered all aspects of this. I’ve looked at my own personal relationship with Rowling, and Harry Potter, and the wider community. I’ve done that work already. The “shades of gray” haven’t changed my mind.
But maybe you can. What shades of gray do you think I’ve overlooked here, or that I should reconsider?
Does my absolutist position annoy you? :: shrugs :: Well sorry, but there isn’t anything I can do about that. That’s a you problem. Not a me problem.
Could you ever change my mind? Sure. Absolutely. I’m here for it. I’ve practically been begging people in this thread to change my mind. Because…
Can you explain how my “absolutist” position is harmful? Because for me this is the biggie. If I’m actually responsible for Roe vs Wade being overturned, if the over three hundred anti-trans legislation on the books right now are all my fault, that I am personally responsible for the industrial prison complex then sure, I’m open to changing my mind. I will officially stop being woke. I will resign from antifa. Step down from leading the Straight Dope Social Justice Warrior Brigade. If what I’m doing here is actually harmful, and if you can objectively, with evidence, demonstrate this, I’ll hang up my woke-hat for good.
Make the case. Do you consider me woke? Do you want to use me as an example of what wokeism is, and why everything about wokeism is wrong, and that its people like me that are hurting the “cause” and the reason why the “right” are winning?
Sure. Lets go for it.
But make sure you bring the receipts. Because this isn’t my first time in the Great Debates arena.
I live in North Carolina, where a duo of anti-trans bills are before the legislature, eager to use whatever culture war divisive issue they can get their hands on. My niece is trans.
This shit is personal; and when people, whoever they are, work to make life more difficult for my niece, you betcha I’ll have a hard time being chill about it.
But I’m on an outer circle. I’m cis, and this doesn’t threaten me personally. It’s worth it to me to try to maintain some chill–especially in face-to-face interactions, where I might actually do some good–so that maybe I can take some of the heat off my niece.
I’ve been involved in leftist causes since the late eighties when I did some volunteering with Act Up. I’ve become increasingly convinced that both the radicals and the pragmatists are necessary; but some of the radicals are just as counterproductive as some of the pragmatists.
…it doesn’t actually check any of the boxes.
You argued that:
And you’ve shown us a tweet. Not a particularly loud tweet. Not a particularly argumentative tweet. Just a bog-standard piece of internet snark. Certainly not the worst that I’ve seen. And absolutely mild compared to the things that Chris R&fo, M@tt Walsh, L*bs of TikTok are posting at the moment.
They are speaking to their audience. Everybody is locked into their own ecosystems now. Chase has an audience of over 100,000 followers and that Tweet got viewed over 150,000 times. Whether or not that influence was “wasted” here is entirely a subjective thing. I suspect they got exactly the engagement that they wanted.
I’ll give you the misogyny. But plenty of people loved Hitler as well. (Godwin gave me permission to post this.)
So the fact that some people consider her a “beloved children’s book author whose popularity has only grown in the last few years” doesn’t change the fact that many other people see her as a vicious, cruel, anti-Semitic racist who hates trans people and is the figurehead in the UK for the gender-critical movement which is actively fighting to take away rights for transgender people.
Do you know how much energy it takes to write a tweet?
I posted a tweet an hour ago. I was lying in bed at the time, in a blanket, staring up at the ceiling. I did it with one hand. I did all the typing with my thumb.
How much energy do you think it takes to write a snarky tweet on twitter dot com?
Yes, really. But that’s a subject for a whole nother thread.
I mean: its Twitter. What are you expecting, a dissertation?
It wasn’t intended to convince. Its kinda like here. I go into Great Debates to debate. And I go into the BBQ Pit and to rant. Sometimes you post something on Twitter to convince. Sometimes you go on Twitter just to make a snarky point. You can do both of those things AND be effective in bringing about change they desire by working tirelessly, writing letters to Congress, donating time and money to organizations that advocate for their causes, organizing public events to get their message out in a rational and compelling way, voting strategically. Which are all things that I’m pretty sure Chase also does.
Those other people are wrong. JK Rowling’s influence has been massively overstated, the “harmful” content of her tweets has been massively exaggerated, her work isn’t anti-semitic or racist and nobody thought so until ten minutes ago when she said that she didn’t think trans women were women.
Some people may have tried to make a reasoned case to her that trans women were women. If they did, I didn’t see them. I did, however, see a great many people posting variations on “Kill yourself, TERF cunt” which I suspect may have caused her to dig her heels in a little.
I’ve read her essay, and I’ve read all her supposedly “harmful” tweets and I think the only way to arrive at the conclusion that she’s vicious, cruel etc… is to interpret her words in the most negative possible light and ascribe to her the least charitable motivations imaginable, literally all of the time, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the frankly deranged reaction to her words from many commentators on the progressive left. I can’t get behind that.
Your post would have been much more convincing if her words and actions weren’t readily available on the internet and in this very thread.
But they are, and you’re not.
The defense of Rowling seems to be both that she is very popular…and that she has no influence.
No they aren’t. Show me posts containing direct quotes. Not links to articles about other people’s interpretations of her words, but her actual words, in context.
Why don’t y’all start jumping through those hoops yourself, and show us how it is done.
OK, watch it now. This is pushing too close to attacking the poster.
I’m going to close this for 22 minutes. No warning, but argue content, not posters.
This topic was automatically opened after 22 minutes.
To get this back on track (sorry about that), could someone on the ant-woke side of the equation provide some specific examples of wokism that you oppose. By examples, I do not mean anecdotes that are impossible to check out and verify. Try to show me through specific examples that anti-wokism is not connected to racism and/or sexism.
…those people, just like you, are entitled to share their opinion.
JK Rowlings influence hasn’t been massively overstated at all. The content of her tweets have been posted verbatim and haven’t been exaggerated, we saw that she made the goblins bankers, we see Cho Chang and Kingsley Shacklebolt. Its all right there, out in the open.
This is a settled argument on the dope. And its settled here because the information is all out there. JK Rowling, a billionaire author that has the ability to do pretty much anything they want, doesn’t need anyone to make a reasoned case on this. They have all the resources to be able to find out about this on their own.
I suspect that the many variations of these were compiled on a screenshot somewhere because that sort of thing is clearly in violation of Twitters rules and would have been deleted after mass reporting. And many of those reporters would have been the chronically woke like me. Because that kind of discourse is unacceptable.
So it makes sense that you would have seen variations on this particular theme. Because they would all have been compiled quite handily in one place.
I used to follow her on Twitter. I even liked and re-tweeted some of her tweets. I was charitable for a time. I have her plenty of leeway. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But when she started to post transphobic stuff I found that I had to mute her. Then I found myself having to unfollow her. Then when she started to pal around with other toxic gender critical activists, when she started going out of her way to target prominent transgender youtubers like Jessie Gender, when she actively started posting anti-trans rhetoric, I finally blocked her.
I did what you wanted me to do. She’s chosen her side. I don’t need to be charitable any more. She said what she said.
Turn a “blind eye?” Really?
Who was it exactly that said " “Kill yourself, TERF c$nt?" Was it one of many " commentators on the progressive left?" Or was it Mr Trolly Troll, from Trollsville, President of the Trolling Troll Society?
Because as the current President of the Straightdope Woke Society, I denounce this behaviour. This is unacceptable. If I had seen that at the time I would have reported it. I don’t turn a blind eye to this.
And the wokes generally don’t get behind asking people to kill themselves either. So it looks like you are on the same side as the wokes in this regard.
This is an unreasonable expectation. The articles I’ve linked to contain direct quotes. And most of the time those quotes link to the actual words that she has said and you can read them for yourself in context. So this has already been done. That you happen to disagree with the commentary is irrelevant. If there is anything specific that you want to call out, then do that. But we aren’t going to run around finding cites to prove your case.
It’s the lack of proportionality that is ruining things. No longer can two folks disagree on an issue and still allow for the possibility that they are both liberal. Nope, can’t have that. One has to be not merely of a different opinion and not merely just wrong. They must also be on the far right. And also a global fascist Hitler who literally wants to kill and torture people.
Yes, I’m exaggerating a little. But not that much.
This is what people are talking about when they think of wokeness. It’s liberal people who treat beliefs that conflict with their own—even relatively trivial ones—as having an evil moral dimension that makes other people worthy of severe social punishment. When the social punishment is meted out, those who see this as righteousness will feel a sense of victory but it’s shallow and illusory. Hearts and minds were not won, opinions not shifted. Just a lot of lost credibility.
And a good example of all this would be…?
An article that a friend shared with me the other day: A Black Professor Trapped in Anti-Racist Hell | Compact Mag
I see that this was also posted by @PhillyGuy.
At the risk of hipstering it up, in 2012 I was in a class on children’s lit, and we discussed Harry Potter, and I was hating on her before it was cool. Brought up quotes by China Mieville, Ursula Le Guin, and others, talking about her paternalism, her racism, her colonialism, and her sexism.
This ain’t exactly a newfangled thing here.
…and as I said the first time this article was posted, what did Keisha have to say about what her professor said? This isn’t objective evidence of anything much. Its just a professor yelling at the kids to “get off their lawn.”