…NO HIPSTERS ALLOWED IN THE STRAIGHTDOPE WOKE SOCIETY!!!
/joke
I can see why his version of what may or may not have happened was published in Compact, considering the table of contents: Compact Mag
Sadly, there’s a severe lack of good faith conversation and people seek to correct rather than connect. Gotcha junkies who need their fix and pretend to not understand what you’ve said and/or ignore the context and fixate on the terminology. Or, acting as if a common thing is non-existent and seeking examples, which, if given, will just lead to endless, pedantic obfuscation with that gotcha fix as the end goal rather than a constructive conversation. I am not their monkey or the dealer for their gotcha addiction.
More often than not, I run into people who, when they hear a buzzword or something similar, they form a caricature in their head that’s an amalgamation of all the people they’ve argued with and they’re not seeing or hearing you, but that caricature. It creates a filter. They argue against arguments you haven’t made and they aren’t hearing what’s being said, but rather, whatever that caricature would say. Nuance simply doesn’t exist for them and the worst possible context is immediately assumed. When I encounter that weird vibe, I just don’t engage anymore. It always ends up a waste of time because they weren’t seeking a conversation in the first place.
thanks for the link, “A Chinese Balloon over Late Soviet America” this is gold.
…talking about conversations in good faith:
Myself and several others have engaged you, and others, in good faith, here in this thread.
And the advantage of doing that here in Great Debates is that it is a well moderated board. Both the wokes and the non-wokes will get moderated to the same standard.
So here we are in this forum dedicated to debates, where we can argue as much as we like as long as we comply with the very reasonable rules of this forum. So here’s your chance to talk directly to the wokes instead of talking about us, as you’ve done in this post.
We are all, right here. You are talking about us. How about you talk to us instead?
I’m asking this in good faith. Can we start with the repeated request from multiple posters that you share something specific that we can actually debate. And by specific: more than just “people that you run into” kinda anecdotes. Something we can actually discuss.
And yeah, this isn’t a “connect” thread. This is a debate thread. So if people are “correcting” you in these circles that’s just how debating works. You say something. We disagree. Debate ensures.
Its always funny how “the woke” get labeled absolutist and intolerant, that will absolutely* not tolerate views to the contrary.
And yet it seems like you hold absolutist views. You are intolerant of those who disagree. You don’t seem to tolerate any views to the contrary. You won’t even debate in the debate thread. Do you think thats a fair characterization? Or do you think you aren’t intolerant of those who disagree?
What would it take you to convince you that you might be wrong on that “gotcha junkies” who “fixate on terminology” aren’t the clear and present threat to progressive ideals that you seem to think that it is?
Who are “they”? What exactly are “they” saying?
I beg of you, please, no more anonymous anecdotes about “them”.
This claim does not seem to tally with surveys of public opinion about Rowling that have actually been conducted in the real world.
Nobody AFAICT is claiming that Rowling isn’t still regarded favorably by many people, or that her fictional works aren’t still broadly popular. But anyone who tries to claim that her popularity and commercial success has ONLY been increasing “in the last few years” is the one who’s out of touch with reality.
AFAICT it’s incontrovertible, according to actual survey data, that Rowling’s approval ratings among adults have dropped substantially (and dropped even farther among younger adults) in the few years since she started supporting transphobia advocacy.
Can y’all take the Rowling conversation elsewhere, please?
Alright, I’ll trust you for a moment and give it a shot. Unfortunately, all I have are the experiences I’ve had. I don’t have a data sheet of who said what, it’s just something I have encountered a lot where there are people who act as I’ve described: assuming the worst context, brooking no disagreement, and a tendency to conflate being disagreed with as an attack.
The two camps I mentioned originally was to illustrate the point that not everyone who argues against “wokeness” is a racist, homophobic right-winger. Some certainly are. Those exist. Unfortunately, it’s all too common for those who claim to be fighting the good fight to paint everyone who disagrees with their narratives with that brush.
I don’t actually call myself “anti-woke” because the word “woke” is rather mired in stigma and seems to have several conflicting definitions anymore. What I oppose is the extremist portion of people who claim to be progressive but unfortunately use the same tactics as those they oppose. Again, all I really have are anecdotes because I’m talking about my personal experiences and I don’t know of a way to convey that in a way that would constitute evidence. I don’t record these interactions in any way, so I’m not sure what you’re seeking.
I haven’t debated because I’m rather gun-shy after having so often dealt with the things I’ve been describing. I am not of the opinion that everyone who might be described as “woke” is like this. Just a very loud and extreme section. As for my stance, I’m non-partisan and consider myself progressive. I want equality, justice, etc. for everyone. I simply disagree with how many people are going about trying to achieve that because my experiences have shown that much of what passes for activism to be ineffective.
I understand that you feel that what I’ve previously described is also ineffective. So, I guess I’d like to know what you would consider effective. I simply feel like too many people have let their rage reduce them to just lashing out with no real solution. I’m not on board with that. The rage is certainly justified, but nothing worthwhile will get accomplished without a level head and without being able to work with people who may differ greatly in beliefs and opinions.
Every bit of progress was done with allies, and I see a lot of folks basically chasing away allies and acting in ways that cause them to not be able to be taken seriously. My reticence to answer thus far is due to that kind of thing being so pervasive.
I guess I might have an example. During Occupy, reaching consensus on anything was nearly impossible. There were so many conflicting views, no cohesion, and a lot of clashing egos. It was a shitshow. I was there for it. Every day it was grandstanding and the same tactics I’ve seen on Twitter and the like were on full display there as well. It boiled down to who was best at shouting others down. You were on their side 100% or you were silenced. If you’re familiar with the book Lord of the Flies, it was like that but without the physical violence.
That is what I oppose. While I am on the same side of most issues as those who might be described as “woke”, I am not on board with how so many are going about it all.
And yet you insist on being extremely vague about what you are complaining about, even in your anecdotes.
…I actually agree with you here. The “anti-wokes” in this thread aren’t racists or sexist, and by definition I think the answer to the question in the OP is that, just like everything else, anti-wokeism can be sexist and/or racist, but not always.
I think the problem here is still a matter of definition. Because when I look at your example:
I obviously wasn’t at Occupy. But I think most progressives, especially those that consider themselves woke, don’t look to Occupy as a model for the way things should move forward. It was, as you say, a shitshow. There were so many conflicting views, no cohesion, and a lot of clashing egos.
But that isn’t a woke problem. That’s a lack of focus problem. That’s a lack of coordination problem. And if you look at the people that have co-opted and are using that label now, like Occupy Democrats, they are oganizations that I want absolutely nothing to do with.
So the problem that I have here is that we are applying a catch-all label to something that IMHO doesn’t really fit. For the people that use that word it means nothing more than “alert to racial prejudice and discrimination”. Occupy, using wikipedias summary:
It had its origins in students protesting “budget cuts, tuition hikes, and staff cutbacks.”
This wasn’t something that was focused on racial prejudice and discrimination at all. It was a mess, and I think most progressives generally regard it as a mess.
So if you don’t support messy unfocused protest movements, then I’m right there with you. But I don’t think its fair to label messy and unfocused protest movements woke. That word means something. We don’t need to appropriate something positive from Black people and turn it into a negative.
I hear a lot of what you’re saying. I would argue that the term woke has already been co-opted from it’s original meaning by people who do the various things I’ve described. So, when it comes to the original definition of woke which is, as I understand it, being cognizant of and understanding about the plight of people of color, then I am on board with that.
And, I guess I should address the specific question of the entire thread. The difference between racism and sexism vs anti-woke is that racism and sexism is judging people for what they were born as and who and what they are and anti-woke is being against certain ideas, beliefs, and opinions.
Perhaps there’s another term for the progressives who use disingenuous tactics and spread one-size-fits-all narratives but I’m not sure what that would be. I think that may be the case with many who might be considered “anti-woke”. Perhaps the whole conundrum boils down to simple misuse of the term “woke”.
Which specific ideas, beliefs, and opinions?
Doesn’t matter. The difference is between what one is vs what one thinks. That’s my answer.
But…being against certain ideas, beliefs and opinions could make one a racist and/or sexist. It allows them to say, “I’m not sexist or racist. I’m just against some ideas, beliefs and opinions that I am under no obligation to clarify.”
One could do that if they were being disingenuous. I am not. I’m pointing out the difference in the most literal sense. So, what you’re saying can apply, but doesn’t necessarily apply. If you’re arguing that there are bigots who pull that kind of stuff, yeah, I agree and I don’t like that either.
…I think there needs to be. As I’ve pointed out earllier in this thread: I did some searching to see just how commonly the word “woke” was being used in any context, both here on the boards and out there on the wide world of net. And before 2020 the word really wasn’t being used widely at all. The first use in this context in a thread title here was in June 2020. Since then there have been ten threads. 2 of them started by the OP.
My searchings on the net follow the same pattern. Almost nothing before 2020. Plenty of mentions after that date. An acceleration of the word in the last few months.
You may have been using that word prior to 2020 in the way that you’ve used it. But it wasn’t really in widespread use. It looks like the word was co-opted by the “right” in 2020 as a catch all for all progressive policy. And in the last few months its been used interchangeably from both sides of the spectrum to describe wide-range of generic behaviour.
And the thing is: I think a lot of my posts here would tick a lot of the “woke” boxes on your checklist. You aren’t going to change my opinions on transgender rights. Or race, or colour, or misogyny. I’m locked in and will argue with you all day long.
So does that make me woke in your eyes?
Or if we go back to the traditional way its defined, does that make me woke?
I think I"m woke either way. Which means I’m alert to racial discrimination and discrimination. But I also draw lines in the sand. I bicker. I’m not going to take the risk and allow change to take its course. I will (metaphorically) throw people into the dumpster when they cross my lines.
I’m two types of woke. But I’m certainly not occupy-level-woke.
So am I really woke? How would you see it?
The change in usage really isn’t that old. Its been, as best as I can tell, under a year. You can find another word.
Okay. So maybe some people go to far, or misinterpret, or overreact, or misunderstand, etc. That kind of stuff can happen. But the existence of these sorts of mistakes doesn’t mean that there’s a larger pattern, or something sinister or otherwise broken about modern progressivism in America. Sure, that’s what the right wing infotainers want us to think, but they regularly exaggerate and lie. Same with the professional aggrieved - those that have made a career of bullshitting about the American left (Greenwald, Taibbi, etc.).
You mentioned policy earlier. What are the policy impacts? What are the big, real world negative consequences that you appear to believe should be obvious to us all?
According to the original definition that I mentioned earlier, the being in support of people of color, I believe you are that kind of woke and that’s a good thing.
As far as the combative kind, I admit it seemed like that with your first replies which is why I was cagey about engaging, but I think that now that you’ve realized I’m not your enemy we’re actually having some sane discourse and that’s good. Since you have the ability to do this and aren’t just sticking to snark, I’d say you’re less of the negative connotation of woke, you’re just passionate about things. It’s good to be so, but it often causes us to form that caricature I was mentioning earlier in one’s mind and argue against that.
We just have to give people the chance to be good. That doesn’t weaken one’s own position. If someone is strong in what they believe, then the haters can blast all they like and you can stand unaffected. The stakes in an online interaction are much lower than many tend to think. If someone online doesn’t agree with me, like me, believe me, etc., then so what? Doesn’t affect my life.
There are many out there who are on the same side of these issues as you and I, but that doesn’t make them good people. How one treats others is more important to me than what one believes. One can be on the right side of issues but a total piece of shit as a person. (You are not that.)
Something I see all too often is that the bigoted trolls thrive on making people angry and getting them to rage and they eat it all up. It’s their sustenance and many “woke” people are all too eager to give them exactly what they want. Starving them is better. One gives away their power when they’re raging. I prefer to keep my power and not let those idiots be in control of my emotions.
I think it’s due to having had to deal with narcissists growing up. I learned how to “grey rock” and give them nothing to latch onto and just maintain a calm solidity. It frustrates the hell out of them because they’re not getting that gotcha or the kind of reaction they seek which they would use to justify their own shittiness.
You’ve shown yourself to be a person of reason after all, and I appreciate it.
Please don't reply, off topic {WE?}
I don’t understand why you are asking this question. Is it because of true ignorance or is this rhetoric? I ask because this question is only helping to convince me that progressives have taken their eye off the ball so badly, they don’t even remember what the ball is. And now are demanding others do the emotional labor of explaining it to them. Yes, I know this sounds stereotypical “woke” of me to say this, but come on! When woke was originally coined and used in a non-pejorative fashion, it actually referred to the opposite of what you’re exhibiting with this line of questioning.
But here you go:
Way back in 2022, women lost the right to federally protected abortion access. Since then, 13 states have banned it. This wouldn’t have happened if conservatives hadn’t been willing to put in the time and effort to work the democratic process. Progressives (myself included) could have done the same thing but we didn’t. We got complacent and let ourselves think having the best words on the internet was enough. Now, progressives are crying about cause and effect, as if what happened is not simply a predictable consequence of democracy in a nation that is half conservative.
The right to abortion was only the most important pillar of women’s rights since women’s suffrage and now it ceases to exist in this country. Progressives failed to put into motion any effective legislation or grassroot campaigns to prevent this from happening. We are largely to blame for this outcome and I see little evidence we’ve learned from this mistake. It takes introspection, humility, and self-awareness to do that, but this is what modern day “wokeness” cannot tolerate. Absolutism was mentioned earlier and it’s spot on: we have to believe Dems did everything right, the GOP did everything evil, and anyone who prefers a more nuanced appraisal is a global fascist (or some other pejorative that is too unhinged to engage with).