What does any of that have to do with “wokism”? Your definition of “wokeness” is your own, not anything I’m familiar with. I literally see not a shred of connection. Republicans succeeded in stacking the court. Liberals failed to stop it, though we tried. Maybe there were tactical errors we can learn from, but you haven’t connected this to “wokism” at all, not even in the tiniest way.
Modding: The topic of this Debate is Anti-Wokism. Do not wander too far from this topic.
I’m going to hide the prior 2 posts as off-topic. An off-topic reply to a question is still an off-topic reply. This is not a warning.
But the ideas, beliefs, and opinions that they’re against are the ideas, beliefs, and opinions that people shouldn’t be racist or sexist.
Or, at any rate, that they should ever mention when something is racist or sexist, instead of just pretending that it isn’t happening.
Not if you’ve been lynched, or gassed, or shot, or even beaten up, or even kept out of a job or place to live or shop or learn, or thrown out of your family.
This is not just a matter of talk.
Yeah, a lot of times it really is. Having survived the 80s and 90s when coming out of certain bars meant risking your life, and being out would cost a job or a place to live I promise you, I lose no sleep over blowhards on social media. Don’t act like extremes are the norm. Anonymity lends bravery to those who are way too cowardly to actually do anything to anyone.
Are there people who do commit these atrocities? Of course, however, they are outliers. 99% of the online vitriol is from useless, harmless windbags. There’s a vast difference between being offended and being harmed. Jumping to extremes like that doesn’t represent the vast majority of situations.
I’m glad you survived. Not everybody did. And not everybody who survived did so without significant damage. If you feel you took no damage from having to hide for 20 years, I’m glad you’re that strong; but I think it’s unfair to insist that everybody should be.
Are many of the people currently making noise in the USA only being windbags, at least unless they find themselves in the middle of a crowd that’s actually taking action? Sure. Do the people actually taking action of one sort or another, including in their votes, only amount to 1%? I very much doubt it. (Did all those books come off the shelves in Florida classrooms because of only 1% of the population?) Is the noise itself not both dangerous, because it encourages the actors, and damaging, because hearing it wears people down? Yes, it is.
…curious about the bolded. Why would you think this?
Because I never thought of you as my enemy. As Thanos would say:
For me this is nothing but a messageboard and I come here to debate when I need to distract myself from real life.
“Enemy” is a word that I reserve for people that in real life wish me harm. I never thought of you, nor anyone else here on this messageboard, as anything else than a real person that has feelings, with agency. I’m not fighting you. This is Great Debates, a forum for debate, and I’m debating you. But none of it is personal.
So this:
That caricature wasn’t “forced” on you. I am me. I’ve been here on these boards since well…decades ago? And this is who I am. If the way you perceived my earlier posts in this thread made you think I fit the caricature of the “bad woke” then that’s a you problem, not a me problem.
I haven’t changed. This conversation didn’t force me to stop thinking of you as my enemy. I never thought of you as my enemy.
Humans are complicated. They aren’t any one thing. That group of people that you think are “woke” are almost certainly more complex and nuanced than whatever surface characteristics you may be observing.
Its one of the reasons why, for the purposes of this debate, I’ve insisted that we talk about something specific. Because its very easy to look at a group of people and give it a label. But most of the time, and especially when a word like “woke” has been co-opted and recently flooded the discourse, that label really doesn’t fit.
So what I’d put back to you then, is that maybe there really isn’t a “woke cabal”. I acknowledge that your experiences with Occupy weren’t great. But Occupy wasn’t woke. It was just a bog-standard mess.
…the “Reverse Woke” Act. Six months was obviously being too charitable.
Speaking of anonymity, how about some solid examples of self-described “wokers” doing the damage you keep insisting is being done by them?
I was referring to the bigots in that statement, not the woke. Still need examples?
That would be a refreshing (but not expected) change of pace.
As I pointed before, the biggest issue for me here is that there are people in power that are willing to pass laws against the caricature of that they think is “woke”, they end up harming many.
And no, they are not anonymous.
“I’ve watched what the Democrats have done in many of these, especially in the NDAA (National Defense Authorization Act) and the ‘woke-ism’ that they want to bring in there,” Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., who is in line to become speaker of the House, said in a news conference in November.
A 2022 survey conducted by the nonprofit Reagan Foundation found 50% of respondents felt that “woke” practices in some way undermined military effectiveness.
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has more urgent items on his agenda, said Sabrina Singh, the Pentagon’s deputy press secretary.
Austin, she said, “is focused on the priorities he set out at the beginning of this administration – defending the nation, deterring strategic attacks against the U.S., allies and partners, deterring aggression and building a lethal, resilient joint force – and we will continue to work with Congress in a bipartisan, bicameral way, just as we always do.”
Democratic Rep. Adam Smith of Washington, who chaired the House Armed Services Committee in the last Congress, said the discussion surrounding these social policies should be framed differently – with more of a focus on addressing bigotry and racism.
“The debate around this has really been idiotic trying to put this into a box of ‘woke’ or ‘not woke,’” he said.
The COVID mandate
Congress in December passed a version of the National Defense Authorization Act, which directs Pentagon spending, that included a provision reversing the mandate that all troops are required to receive the COVID-19 vaccine. More than 3,700 Marines, 1,800 soldiers and 2,000 sailors have been discharged for refusing to get vaccinated, according to Pentagon data.“There were a lot of service members who were wronged by this policy,” said Rep. Brian Mast, R-Fla., an Army veteran.
…
Rep. Mike Gallagher, R-Wis., who served active duty in the United States Marine Corps, said the COVID-19 vaccine played a role in recruits’ willingness to join the military.
“I would submit that if 33% of 16- to 28-year-olds are not going to get the vaccine, that the vaccine mandate has to play a role there,” he said during a panel at the Reagan National Defense Forum last month, referencing recruitment numbers that are falling.
But a Pentagon survey of young people from January to September found the majority said the vaccine mandate did not change their likelihood of joining the military, according to the DOD’s Singh. Some of the respondents said the mandate increased their likelihood of signing up.
Oh, yes, one thing that was conveniently left a lot in this discussion is that many conservatives are nowadays including a virulent anti-vaccination message in the “woke” section.
I agree completely. They exist. They are not the norm, though. My argument was that the vast majority of online arguing is not with those who have this kind of power which is true. It’s generally not difficult to figure out who is who and be able to take each interaction on a case by case basis.
Sorry, they have the majority in the House right now. It was all in the news. And I was not talking about the online blowhards.
However, on that side, you really are not aware about the huge misinformation campaign going on in the internet about “woke” vaccines? That has caused a lot of harm.
Well, then we’re not having the same conversation. And that’s okay.
Not okay either, on the internet:
Then there is Parents Defending Education (PDE), a Virginia-based organization that purports to advocate on behalf of concerned parents and encourages activists to “document examples of woke indoctrination” with the group, which it then shares on its “IndoctriNation Map.” Some of the examples of issues flagged for the map include schools that encourage “anti-racism,” “equity,” and are “promoting activism.”
David Armiak, research director for the nonprofit watchdog Center for Media and Democracy, said it can be difficult to keep track of the number of organizations popping up that are attempting to capitalize off of culture war issues.
"A lot of this is very sophisticated groups, like Parents Defending Education, following similar strategies and responding out of nowhere to engage on these issues,” Armiak said. “When you start a new nonprofit, nobody really knows who backs it, and the filing probably won’t come out for a while. So this might not even be an issue by this time next year when we see their first filing.”
Indeed, when Media Matters announced in December that it had obtained an IRS filing for Parents Defending Education, it found that the group is helmed by a number of activists affiliated with conservative funding networks and right-wing media outlets that have been manufacturing outrage about CRT in public schools.
As the recent elections in Wisconsin and across the country showed, investing in public schools and supporting pro-public education voices are critical issues for voters. Rightwing groups failed in their efforts to oust incumbent school board members and win campaigns based on anti-CRT fear in Las Cruces, New Mexico and in Guilford, Connecticut. And in Hilliard, Ohio, where right-wing groups campaigned heavily against CRT and masks, the top vote-getter in the school board race was Kara Crowley, a member of the Ohio Education Association, who won with a positive vision for public education in her community.
With outside advocacy groups continuing to try and turn classrooms into the latest front of their culture wars, it’s important for educators to support candidates who will strengthen public schools for all students, and who reject talking points designed to undermine the fabric of education.
Unfortunately in other places, like in Virginia, there were people elected because they also included vaccines on the things that were also considered “woke”
I haven’t made any argument that things like this aren’t happening. I stated that we can take interactions on a case by case basis. Not sure what these articles have to do with that. It seems that you are refuting arguments I haven’t made.
…before this thread goes any further,I just wanted to thank up2eleven for taking the time to engage with me in good faith. You’ve given me a bit of perspective on the issue.
You are still wrong But I can live with that.
Haaa! I appreciate your good faith as well. I’m glad we could understand each other a bit more.
The point, that stands too, is that it is too narrow to think that the blowhards on the Internet do not include conservatives that have a lot of power, it is a position that misses a lot of what is going on now. And not worrying abut it is really a bit of a naive position to have, considering the harm they are causing.
I already said they are there. I’m not disagreeing with you. Read what I wrote. I just said they aren’t the norm. That doesn’t mean they’re not impactful. Uncommon does not equal unimportant. My argument is that we can’t go around treating everyone who disagrees with us as if they are those people. Again, case by case basis. Rationality. Reason. Discernment. Those are important when it comes to communicating with people. You seem very eager to assume a mindset for me that I don’t have. I’ll ask you kindly not to try to tell me what I “really” mean.