How Is Communism a Religion

[TriPolar]

@Marley23

And yet, somehow this has continued for several days. Take this hijack into a new thread about atheism and religion or let it go.

I apologize. I have asked others to move to the other thread, but they keep responding here. I will not do so again.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@mutantmoose

It is not required that you believe them but they are there nonetheless. Buddhism tells you to focus on the now but it still has a recommended supernatural background.

Not “recommended,” so much as incidental. The supernatural beliefs in Buddhism are generally local, indigeonous cultural beliefs that predated Buddhism and became incorporated into it.

And rebirth is by definition a supernatural belief.

You don’t have to believe in reincarnation to be a Buddhist. Buddha himself said not to waste time worrying about such things.
The point remains that you can be a Buddhist without holding a single supernatural belief. Supernatiral beliefs are not a prerequisite for religion, and such a criterion doesn’t save communism from being a religion.

[x-ray_vision]

@mutantmoose

But they are still Gods ie supernatural.

There are no gods in Buddhism.

And what about this strikes you as being non-supernatural?

A mind state arises and somehow passes into other people when you die?

You’re simply not understanding what you’re reading. What I quoted describes rebirth as going from one mind state to another within one lifetime. Another way to describe it is as “spiritual growth”. There is no “passing into other people when you die” in what you quoted.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@mutantmoose

But they are still Gods ie supernatural.

And what about this strikes you as being non-supernatural?

A mind state arises and somehow passes into other people when you die?

I don’t think you understood that passage very well. It says nothing about what happens when youy die. It’s saying that consciousness within an individual is, metaphorically speaking, a constant sequence of “deaths” and “rebirths” rather than an unbroken continuum. That every state of consciousness is an individual “birth and death.” It’s metaphorical. It’s intended to be a subjective description of ordinary consciousness - a way to think about it - it’s not positing anything supernatural and has nothing to do with reincarnation.

[mutantmoose]

Actually I think you two are the ones not understanding what you’re reading.

From x-ray’s link:

What Theravada Buddhists Believe

There is no transmigration of individual souls, but through the law of karma, one’s wholesome or unwholesome intentions become imprinted in the mind. Negative mental states persist through continual rebirth until one’s intentions become wholesome. Once fully enlightened, one is liberated from rebirths, reaching a state of absolute selflessness resulting in ultimate bliss called Nirvana–the “Deathless State.” One becomes Buddha (or one with Buddha). Some Buddhists, especially modern Western, don’t emphasize or believe in literal rebirth.

I don’t know how much clearer that link could make it. Apart from a few modern western “hippy” buddhists, rebirth is a real supernatural thing and not just a mode of thinking during the course of one lifetime.

Also here:

To eliminate karma, which causes rebirth, one must extinguish the belief in a separate self that give rise to cravings, desires, and attachments.

and here:

Unenlightened life is suffering, and the cessation of this suffering is the primary goal of Buddhism–to reach Nirvana, to end cycles of rebirth. Suffering is a result of past-life greed, hatred, and ignorance, which return as suffering (karma),

I’ve even bolded the relevant bits for you to make it even clearer. Note the “past-life” phrase in that last one to make it doubly clear for those not listening at the back.

[x-ray_vision]

@mutantmoose

Actually I think you two are the ones not understanding what you’re reading.

From x-ray’s link:

What Theravada Buddhists Believe - Beliefnet

There is no transmigration of individual souls, but through the law of karma, one’s wholesome or unwholesome intentions become imprinted in the mind. Negative mental states persist through continual rebirth until one’s intentions become wholesome. Once fully enlightened, one is liberated from rebirths, reaching a state of absolute selflessness resulting in ultimate bliss called Nirvana–the “Deathless State.” One becomes Buddha (or one with Buddha). Some Buddhists, especially modern Western, don’t emphasize or believe in literal rebirth.

I don’t know how much clearer that link could make it.

Neither do I. What does “There is no transmigration of individual souls” mean to you?

Also here:

To eliminate karma, which causes rebirth, one must extinguish the belief in a separate self that give rise to cravings, desires, and attachments.

and here:

Unenlightened life is suffering, and the cessation of this suffering is the primary goal of Buddhism–to reach Nirvana, to end cycles of rebirth. Suffering is a result of past-life greed, hatred, and ignorance, which return as suffering (karma),

This was explained to you in posts #123 and #124. Did you bother to click the links I posted in post #117?

Note the “past-life” phrase in that last one to make it doubly clear for those not listening at the back.

Your sarcasm is so charming.

[BrainGlutton]

@x-ray_vision

There are no gods in Buddhism.

Buddha grew up in a culture with gods and never, AFAIK, expressed doubt as to their existence. But they’re not in Buddhism, i.e., Buddhist practice does not involve praying to them. In its original form, that is; later forms made effective gods of the Buddha and Bodhisattvas and many supernatural beings.

[mutantmoose]

@x-ray_vision

What does “There is no transmigration of individual souls” mean to you?

It means there is no concept of a soul in Buddhism. However something passes from one person to the next.

I don’t want to be unfair to you. It was me that originally and lazily mentioned the word “soul” and I was incorrect to do so. But the original question was whether there are any supernatural elements in Buddhism. You’re right about the soul thing but you seem to be maintaining that Buddhists believe that nothing passes between humans.

The soul concept would mean that the whole of me, mutantmoose, somehow passes into something else upon death but Buddhism is just saying that some of my thoughts, actions etc will pass into other beings (ie karma) and after my death some of my karma will live on in other creatures.

So I think that still counts as supernatural.

Did you bother to click the links I posted in post #117?

Yeah and they support the idea of supernatural elements eg:

By actions, thoughts, and words, man is releasing spiritual energy to the universe and he is in turn affected by influences coming in his direction. Man is therefore the sender and receiver of all these influences.

I think that the idea that I am somehow “receiving” other people’s thoughts in some kind of telepathic communion is a bit supernatural.

As is the idea that my actions, thoughts and words are releasing spiritual energy to the universe.

Your sarcasm is so charming.

Sorry. I didn’t mean to sound sarcastic.

[x-ray_vision]

@mutantmoose

It means there is no concept of a soul in Buddhism. However something passes from one person to the next.

Nothing supernatural.

I don’t want to be unfair to you. It was me that originally and lazily mentioned the word “soul” and I was incorrect to do so. But the original question was whether there are any supernatural elements in Buddhism. You’re right about the soul thing but you seem to be maintaining that Buddhists believe that nothing passes between humans.

Nothing supernatural in what you quoted.

The soul concept would mean that the whole of me, mutantmoose, somehow passes into something else upon death but Buddhism is just saying that some of my thoughts, actions etc will pass into other beings (ie karma) and after my death some of my karma will live on in other creatures.

No, not after your death- while you’re alive. Where in what I quoted or linked to did it say anything will happen after you die?

You’re reading in too much into the use of the word “thoughts”. There are no beliefs that are telepathic. The idea is that your thoughts will affect your actions and who you are in general which in turn affects others. This is more obvious when one reads what you quoted in context. Note the use of “action-influence”:

By actions, thoughts, and words, man is releasing spiritual energy to the universe and he is in turn affected by influences coming in his direction. Man is therefore the sender and receiver of all these influences. The entire circumstances surrounding him is his karma.

With each action-influence he sends out and at the same time, receives, he is changing. This changing personality and the world he lives in, constitute the totality of his karma.