How is "shutting down the government" a winning strategy?

[adaher]

I wonder what other waste in the budget they are refusing to address until they need money for a new program?

I’ll bet it’s the food stamp fraud. Democrats didn’t get serious about Medicare fraud until they needed to fund Obamacare. I guess the food stamp fraud will suddenly become a priority for the next new entitlement. Until then, it’s like money in a piggy bank, waiting to be plucked, and all efforts to solve the problem will be resisted as savage and heartless.

[Fear_Itself]

@adaher

The Ryan plan uses that savings to cut the deficit.

Heh. You spelled “tax cuts for the wealthy” wrong.

[Ravenman]

adaher, the words “go look at a picture and let me explain what I see in a bunch of red and blue dots, plus I can’t figure out any other way to explain something, and oh by the way here’s a string of conjectures” is not synonymous with the word “cite.”

@adaher

Now compare that to a map of congressional districts and you figured out why Democrats don’t control the House.

Democrats got a million more votes for House seats than Republicans, and you think a picture of vast expanses of sparsely populated areas is the reason? Give me a break.

[Broomstick]

@adaher

What happens when employees who like their insurance get dumped onto the exchanges, or worse, Medicaid?

It depends on just how good the insurance they got from their employers actually was. I’ve seen some completely crap policies offered with a job, policies that were worse than being on Medicaid. It can’t be said for sure until the exchanges actually open, which will be October 1st, but I don’t accept it as a given that the exchange and/or Medicaid insurance will be inherently worse than some of the crap some employers have offered in the past.

[BobLibDem]

@adaher

Since the cuts are the same, they both address Medicare spending growth in exactly the same way. The Ryan plan uses that savings to cut the deficit. The Obama plan uses that savings to fund a new entitlement.

Seems to me that Romney pretty much repeated this about a thousand times in the 2012 campaign. Nobody bought it then and nobody is buying it now. It worked about as well for Romney as his claim that Chrysler was moving all the Jeep production to China.

[iiandyiiii]

Some polling on the Republicans threat to shut down the government and/or default on our debt to force defunding of ACA: 59% oppose this plan, only 19% support it. And even on the question “should we defund the ACA”, without any mention of government shutdown or default, a plurality oppose it 44-38.

[JackieLikesVariety]

Republicans don’t have any problem with escalating medical costs (and the requisite hardship that causes millions of Americans, no doubt because they benefit their friends and benefactors in the insurance industry) and have no plan to do anything that would solve them. None of their suggested replacements for Obamacare address medical costs at all. They want to cut Medicare and have wanted to do so for decades, without addressing any of the factors which have caused Medicare spending to escalate.

this right here

[Oldeb]

The Ryan budget? Seriously? :smack: Even if Fox News and the GOP want to pretend that the ACA wasn’t part of the last election, there’s no way to spin the Romney/Ryan loss as anything but a mass rejection of the Ryan budget, right? Nothing involving the Ryan budget can be considered an honest debate in good faith. It’s farther off the table than re-establishing Jim Crow laws.

adaher, even if you’re absolutely 100% correct about everything there is still no win in shutting down the government. It’s amputating to cure a broken arm at best. Even if you believe it’s a tough love scenario for the county’s own good, the GOP loses. There is no poll that doesn’t place the blame on the GOP. There’s not even a break even scenario here. Just a chance to limit the damage instead of maximize it. Have you see Blazing Saddles?

Bart: [low voice] Hold it! Next man makes a move, the nigger gets it!
Olson Johnson: Hold it, men. He’s not bluffing.
Dr. Sam Johnson: Listen to him, men. He’s just crazy enough to do it!
Bart: [low voice] Drop it! Or I swear I’ll blow this nigger’s head all over this town!
Bart: [high-pitched voice] Oh, lo’dy, lo’d, he’s desp’it! Do what he sayyyy, do what he sayyyy!

Bart is the Republicans and unfortunately for them the townsfolk in real life aren’t quite as dumb as in the movies.

[Wolf333]

@adaher

You just did. Take one look at your map. A sea of red with blue enclaves. Now compare that to a map of congressional districts and you figured out why Democrats don’t control the House.

Just to put this in perspective:

Combined populations of North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana = 4.66 million.

Population of New York City = 8.18 million.

[ElvisL1ves]

Looks like his teacher hasn’t yet gotten to the part about our having a government of, by, and for the people. Not dirt.

[garygnu]

Here’s a lovely page with maps adjusted for the population of places. A sea of red with dots of blue my ass.

[Ravenman]

@Wolf333

Just to put this in perspective:

Combined populations of North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana = 4.66 million.

Population of New York City = 8.18 million.

New York City in square miles: 6,700

ND, SD, ID, WY and MT in square miles: somewhat less than half a million

Of course people look at a map of the US and think, “Gee, look at all that red territory! This country is really Republican!” Well, if you look at this map, which is a mash up of geography and voting trends that is adjusted for population, you’ll get a much different view.

ETA: Ah, look. garygnu posted the same thing. That’ll teach me for taking 10 minutes to post something.

[GIGObuster]

I see that **adaher **decided it was better to throw Politifact under the bus, better that then admit that many that look at the facts conclude that there is a difference and he was wrong on this one.

[YogSothoth]

@adaher

Employer subsidies tend to be a lot more generous than ACA subsidies.

With less people to insure, sure, they can be more generous. That does shit for those without insurance. Now tens of millions will be on it and overall, the cost will be less. I don’t really care about how much you think you should be paying per month, only that more people are on insurance

@adaher

See, you misunderstand the political situation. 80% of Americans were satisfied with their health insurance, thus the need to promise up and down that people would be able to keep it.

First, 80% of Americans were not. You have no cite, therefore that statistic is made up.

And second, it doesn’t matter what Americans think is better, only that what is actually better is being implemented.

@adaher

The $500 billion in Medicare savings is a fact. And if it was ANY other program it would be called a cut. As a matter of fact, it always was when Republicans tried to reduce the rate of growth, using exactly the same methods(cutting provider payments).

Obamacare saves billions on Medicare and you don’t like it, boo hoo :rolleyes:

@adaher

And BTW, I can’t help but notice that your argument indirectly admits Democratic duplicity. Supposedly there’s this $500 billion in free money in the Medicare program that was just waiting for Democrats to take it. Why did they bilk taxpayers for decades until they needed that money for another program?

It doesn’t really matter what you notice, saving money is not cutting. In 10 years, Obamacare will save this country a lot of money and Republicans will either like it or keep bitching about it from their new regional HQ somewhere in the South where all of their elected officials are.

[wonky]

Does every thread in this forum have to turn into the adaher show? This “throw it against the wall and see what sticks” method of endless debating is ruining this forum.

[wonky]

From Gallup:

Americans’ Desire for Gov’t Leaders to Compromise Increases
By 53% to 25%, say leaders should compromise rather than stick to principles
by Frank Newport

PRINCETON, NJ – At a time when disagreements and inability to reach consensus in Congress pose the threat of a federal government shutdown, Americans express an increasingly strong preference for their political leaders in Washington to compromise, rather than stick to their principles at the cost of getting nothing done.

[Ravenman]

Another poll on this topic just released: 19% of Americans support shutting down government over Obamacare. Even if a government shutdown isn’t involved, only 38% support defunding Obamacare.

Most Americans against defunding Obamacare: Survey

[adaher]

@Broomstick

It depends on just how good the insurance they got from their employers actually was. I’ve seen some completely crap policies offered with a job, policies that were worse than being on Medicaid. It can’t be said for sure until the exchanges actually open, which will be October 1st, but I don’t accept it as a given that the exchange and/or Medicaid insurance will be inherently worse than some of the crap some employers have offered in the past.

Of course not. It all depends on implementation, as I said. If it’s implemented well, the program probably succeeds and becomes a permanent fixture of American life and Obama’s place in history is assured.

My issue is that I don’t think he has the competence to implement it well, and that the design of the law makes such a job difficult even for a good President. They knew the Senate bill was flawed, but they passed it because the Brown election meant they had no choice and they wanted something. That could end up being a fatal mistake for UHC in America. Because if it is a train wreck, and Democrats do get punished for it, and it does get repealed, how long will it be before Democrats try again? 50 years?

I know that’s a lot of “ifs”, but it’s not even close to being implausible. The law is already unpopular, bad implementation will make it even worse. And that leads to political consequences.

[adaher]

@YogSosoth

Obamacare saves billions on Medicare and you don’t like it, boo hoo :rolleyes:

Obamacare doesn’t do that, the waste was already there to be eliminated. Why wait until Obamacare to eliminate it? What other waste are Democrats “saving” for their next big plan? Dental insurance for all, paid for by solving waste in the welfare system?

[Richard_Parker]

@adaher

Of course not. It all depends on implementation, as I said. If it’s implemented well, the program probably succeeds and becomes a permanent fixture of American life and Obama’s place in history is assured.

My issue is that I don’t think he has the competence to implement it well, and that the design of the law makes such a job difficult even for a good President.

It’s ironic that in this thread of all places you’re suggesting that implementation is primarily, much less solely, in the hands of the Executive Branch. Quite obviously, it is not. It is as much in the hands of Congress and state governments.