The Iraq quagmire will be the biggest reason for Bush losing in november and therefore the world will be safer with Kerry.
Oh, you meant “safer” ?
Sarcasm off…
Safer… Hm, no, I can’t help you there.
I’ve got one candidate for better, though: The antiwar movement has given a boost to the left side of politics here in Norway, and possibly/probably in other parts of Europe as well. That’s a good thing in my book (you might not agree, of course). It looks as if we might see the Socialist Left Party as part of a coalition government here in the not too distant future. It remains to be seen how much of their actual politics would survive once they get those nice cabinet chairs under their backsides, but it can’t help but be an improvement over our current cabinet.
I know you would…thats why I usually enjoy your posts even when we disagree. I guess I just read it differently.
Of course. Just about anything in the ME is ultimately about the oil.
See?? I knew you could do it. 
Well, as I said I didn’t read it that way. I read it as a young kid who ‘supported the war’ (whatever that actually means) who wants to know some things that were benificial that came out of it (and who has some obvious errors in the facts as he understands them), and came here to ask because…well, where else would you ask to get a good answer to any question besides the SDMB???
I guess I was just a bit miffed that people couldn’t attempt to fight his ignorance and set aside their personal feelings towards the war in Iraq to look objectively and answer honestly. There certainly WERE some positive things that came out of the war (aside from Halliburton stock increases), even if (IMHO) more negative things (for America) came out than positive (for America, Iraq and the world).
As to the measured response…I think you can attribute that to the general wearyness folks are to this subject on both sides of the debate.
-XT
Well, one pro is the lightening rod effect. Being that they (terrorists) don’t have to come to the US to kill Americans because our soldiers and contractors are in Iraq. You could state that mainland Americans could be safer for this reason. :shrug:
“And if he isn’t, then this will kill him.” – Groucho Marx
And to satisfy the bare-bones letter of the OP, I agree that we now have absolutely nothing to fear about Saddam Hussein using WMD against the US or its allies.
We also don’t have to worry about him winning the 100 meter dash at the 2008 Olympics.
Anybody’s guess as to which was more likely?
What would anyone suggest when Saddam died and there was a prospect of Iraq imploding. Would that make the situation any more worse or would that be acceptable rather than invading?
The Kurds and the Marsh Arabs are both far better off.
The Americans have been exposed as idiots and liars on the world stage and won’t get any further support for military jaunts any time soon.
harsh, harsh, but funny
[quote=st pauler]
Removing someone that would so readily agree with Bush/Rove rhetoric could be one step closer to a peaceful world. [/
[quote]
I mus admit that I had yet to think of this one.
Just what I thought when I read st pauler’s comments
True, true, true.
One thing that has come out of both the Iraq and 9-11 is the dramatic upswing in foreign policy among Americans. I think this was prob’ly overdue.
Rhetoricaly, how many more Americans can find Afghanistan on an unlabelled globe now that three years ago?
How many more now know a difference between Iraq and Iran?
UbL and GWB have upped the ante. They have (for many) changed the the value of paying attention to ferners and such. **Rational ignorance** on the subject is no longer rational.
Increasing the antipathy for America has made terrorist recruiters’ jobs easier. Increasing the antipathy for America has made terrorists’ ‘pledge drives’ easier. Turning Iraq into such a chaotic place to has allowed more terrorists to train more thoroughly in the practice of violence.
- an increase in the number of potential terrorists;
- more opportunities for more terrorists to train in the ways of violence,
- more incentives for terrorist financial backer to support terrorism.
How long till the homicidal reach the US? How long 9-11 was in the works before it came to fruition?
As PotUSA GW Bush once said, our oceans no longer protect us.
It’s just a matter of time until the upswing in the number of better trained terrorists puts a terrorist on our shores.
The lightning rod effect is an illusion that can only exist undispelled in the short term. In the mid-term (3-5 yrs from now) more of the effects of al Qaeda’s planned for recruiting bonus will become more and more blatant.
Good point. It wouldn’t’ve taken a lot to make them much better off in comparison to the level’s of oppression that I heard they suffered. I’m happy for them as well.
Other means of influence are so much more efficient. Not as dramatic, and usually not as quick, but devour far fewer resources.
The Mash Arabs I don’t know about, but the Kurds were doing pretty well under the pre-war no-fly zones etc, getting used to running things for themselves for once, things are much less certain now.
They can’t be given autonomy because that would piss off Turkey, will they be allowed to defend themselves in disputed areas like Kirkuk, or will they be sold down the river as before (see the promises made after the first Gulf war) and face the usual fate of minorities in artificially thrown together countries?
If the states were to invade I would agree , just there is more non military options for dealing with Iran.
Well , the opposite view is that its better to deal with em now , when what ever special weapons they do have , are primitive ,rather than wait ten years , till they have an analogue of the titan or minute man missile.
Declan
I think the best over all move (for everyone except the North Korean people of course) is to simply wait it out. The regime is bound to collapse sooner or later…hopefully sooner than later. Someone eventually is bound to put a bullet in Little Kim’s oversized head, or he’s bound to die of a heart attack in a drunken orgy or something…and when that happens there is the very real possibility that major changes will occure. Even if they don’t, the next major famine will most likely push them over the edge, and they are constantly on the edge of such a famine.
-XT
Saddam’s evil sons Uday and Kusay were killed and Saddam got captured and taken to court. Iraq is in the olympics and they will finally be having a real election.
To support your opinion you may want to look at it from the perspective of Iraqi babies who were starving to death by the thousands in Saddam’s Iraq.
You may remember that those who were opposed to Bush going into Iraq were quite content to allow the situation to remain vis-a-vis sanctions.
If you consider that if Clark is correct, 150,000 Iraqis were dying every year prior to the ouster of Saddam. I don’t think the death toll has been quite that high in the past year.
Regardless, I don’t believe the humanitarian objective in saving Iraqis is worth a thousand plus young innocent American lives which apparently isn’t even appreciated.
It is my belief we would of gone in eventually, it only would of been a matter of time. Sooner go in, let them fuck it up and at least try to promote some democratic virtues whilst they’re at it rather than later.
Whaaaaa? Many of those involved in the anti-war movement had been calling for the lifting of sanctions for years.
I was primarily think of those countries who did not join the coalition of the willing and were content to claim that Saddam was under control with the status quo.
France et al were pushing for a rstructuring of the sanctions.
Restructuring how? When? How serious was the effort? I remember some noises being made but nothing very serious. Is the implication that the US was blocking such measures while Europe was all for ‘restructuring’? I don’t know the answers to any of these, but figure they would factor in. If you have some cites I’d love to see em as I really don’t know.
-XT
When the US, Britain and Spain petitioned the UN to lift sanctions on Iraq, they were originally opposed by France and Russia.