How Likely is It that Trump will Try to Proclaim Martial Law?

So you think Sidney Powell is a Russian agent?

In my post, I was responding to accusations that Ted Cruz, among others, “inexplicably” switched from a Trump opponent to a Trump supporter, supposedly due to blackmail or subversion.

As to why some Republicans are still supporting him, despite overwhelming evidence that he lost the election…

It may be cognitive dissonance (they have a lot of their personal ego and identity tied up with his success and can’t psychologically bear the thought of him losing), they might be making (perhaps flawed) calculations that being seen to support him will pay off with his base (votes and donations), they might just be loopy.

People believe weird things, and bring weird cases to court. Do you honestly believe creationists, anti-vaxxers, global warming deniers, birthers, sovereign citizens, and COVID denialists are all Russian assets or victims of some nebulous blackmail scheme?

I don’t consider the speculation about blackmail to be groundless, considering that it’s public record that he’s done it.

He did it to Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski They were told -through an intermediary, that a negative National Enquirer story was in the works but it wouldn’t be published if they changed their coverage of Donald Trump. The Enquirer had spent several months harassing the couple and their families while reporting on the story. I suspect the intermediary was Jared Kushner although Joe Scarborough didn’t name him publicly, Joe only said the threats were made by a member of his inner circle.

The National Enquirer then published the story - which wasn’t that damaging. It was a shitty thing to do, especially considering it hit the week that Brzezinski’s father died. And it was a failed blackmail attempt.

There’s also good reason to believe that the Kushner/Trump gang was involved in the attempt to blackmail Jeff Bezos.

So if I know of two cases where someone tried to blackmail someone and failed, it’s not unreasonable to believe that they may have succeeded at some point.

What dangerous is false equivocating criminals with sometimes misguided politicians with the best interest of the public at heart. That’s what pissed me off about the debates, the entire campaign season. I saw it as the equivalent of asking everyone to listen to both Warren Buffet and Bernie Madoff before deciding where to invest their money.

And I’m not accusing him of widespread actual blackmail - he’s done it just enough to get across the message that he’ll attempt to personally trash and destroy anyone that gets in his way.

And if they succeed, then pretty much by definition, we wouldn’t know about it.

No, that is not what myself or most would read Fascism has come to America to mean. A small handful of inbred idiots sitting in their Mom’s attic is not Fascism coming to America. And those guys arent really fascists anyway, they just mouth the words. By that then Anarchism has come to America, Communism has come to America, Monarchism has come to America, etc etc. There are always a few nuts. Now sure, the white supremacists have gotten some voice with the current Idiot-in-Chief but even tho all Nazis are White Supremacists, all White Supremacists arent Nazis.

If Fascism has really come to America, they’d be running viable nazi party candidates.

No, Fascism can never happen here, in fact, I will say it will never happen again. It’s dead. Just like Communism.

That doesnt mean Authoritarianism is dead, no- in fact it is very much alive and well. But the particular flavor of Authoritarianism called Fascism is dead.

You quoted wiki "Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy …" and yes, Far right authoritarianism isnt dead. But note those words "is a form of". Far right authoritarianism will never take the FORM of Fascism again. And trump isnt a fascist- he is a Populist=

An ideology like fascism involves a holistic view of how politics, the economy, and society as a whole should be ordered. Populism doesn’t; it calls for kicking out the political establishment, but it doesn’t specify what should replace it. So it’s usually paired with “thicker” left- or right-wing ideologies like socialism or nationalism.Populists are dividers, not uniters, Mudde told me. They split society into “two homogenous and antagonistic groups: the pure people on the one end and the corrupt elite on the other,” and say they’re guided by the “will of the people.” The United States is what political scientists call a “liberal democracy,” a system “based on pluralism—on the idea that you have different groups with different interests and values, which are all legitimate,” Mudde explained. Populists, in contrast, are not pluralist. They consider just one group—whatever they mean by “the people”—legitimate… By Inauguration Day, the transformation was complete: Trump’s rhetoric was thoroughly populist. “January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again,” he proclaimed…The moral dimension of populism “explains why someone like Donald Trump, who clearly is not a commoner, can nevertheless pretend to be the voice of the people,” Mudde told me. “He doesn’t argue, ‘I am as rich as you.’ What he argues is, ‘I have the same values as you. I’m also part of the pure people.’”

And here’s where the ideological explanation for Trump’s seeming vanity comes in. If Trump is the only authentic emissary of the people, then how does he reconcile that role with unspectacular crowd sizes, weak poll numbers, the loss of the popular vote, mass protests by people claiming he doesn’t represent them, and critical media coverage of the policies the people allegedly want?..While Trump has been inconsistently populist, Mudde noted, he has consistently opposed elites, demonstrated a nativist attitude toward immigrants, and exhibited “authoritarian streaks.” These could be described as his thicker ideologies.

According to Norris, who labels Trump a “populist-authoritarian,” nativist nationalism dwells on threats posed by outsiders, and revolves around “the idea that the country should come first, and that there are certain groups that are part of the people and they’re the ones who should get the benefits and rewards of that society.”

And in case you think I am hanging my hat on a single article that trump is a populist:

and more.

It also doesn’t explain the passion they show for supporting Trump - which includes supporting every single stupid thing he’s ever said.

I could see Cruz and others going along with Trump because he was ultimately the president, and at least with things like his tax cuts and appointing conservative judges, he was doing the things any of them would have done as president.

But he’s also done a whole lot of other stupid shit, and with very few exceptions, they’ve never ever called him on any of it. Even with the pandemic, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans that were largely avoidable, they still go out of their way to kiss his ass. That’s not just going along to get along, that’s not just normal party politics. There’s got to be some other motivation at play, and some sort of blackmail is a plausible answer. I haven’t seen any other answer that seems as likely.

It’s a dead certainty that members of Congress have been targets of foreign intelligence services. It wouldn’t be at all surprising to find out that at least a few of them have been compromised.

And this is particularly true when you consider how often incumbent candidates get re-elected. Very few Senators with a national level profile like Cruz have any significant worries about the prospects of re-election.

Speaking only for myself, I think Sidney Powell, is mentally unwell, and is a useful idiot that is doing work that pleases Russia. They might try feeding her nutty conspiracy crap just to set her off, but that’s about it.

So…every Trump supporter and enabler is a victim of blackmail and/or a Russian asset? Were all 74 million+ Americans who voted for him blackmailed or suborned?

Louie Gohmert has been a loon for decades. Has he been a Russian asset that entire time? Did they tell him to just support random ridiculous causes on general principle?

And what about the Republicans who don’t support Trump? Did Trump just not even try to blackmail them? Was he successful in literally every single blackmail scheme except for two random journalists? Not one single Senator was willing to risk exposure of an affair to reveal this nefarious scheme to undermine the republic - and to undermine their own personal political power?

And as for the Russians - seriously, every single target was successfully suborned and no one reported an unsuccessful approach? What’s the actual evidence for any contemporary American politician being a Russian asset?

And even if all of these charges of blackmail and/or subversion are true, why do so many rank and file Republicans and ordinary voters support him? Again, are 74 million+ Americans being secretly blackmailed and/or suborned? If “the little people” support Trump without blackmail and/or foreign subversion, why is it so hard to believe that Republican big shots would as well?

I really think you’re seeing nefarious conspiracies behind bog standard political behavior. Partisanship and tribalism, sticking it to the other guy, cognitive dissonance, sunk costs, authoritarian personalities, deference to high status self-confident “natural leaders”, pursuit of individual interests…it’s all just common human nature. Not everyone to the same degree, of course, but still common human nature.

No, but a not insignificant portion of elected officials is.

There is a difference between Nazis and Fascists. All Nazis are Fascists, not all Fascists are Nazis.

No, they’d be under the Republican ticket.

At best, you are no true Scotsmanning here. If you want to say that it is a slightly different flavor of authoritarianism, then sure, go for it. I’m sure that the current wanna-bes have learned enough to make some updates to their ethos. But that’s really just quibbling on semantics, while entirely ignoring the larger point.

By your logic, doesn’t that mean that we are already living in an authoritarian state, and that voting or fighting or donating are pointless?

Sure, it’ll put on a new dress and new makeup, and fool those who say, “Never again!” into thinking that it isn’t happening again.

I disagree, Trump ran as a populist, that’s how he got so many on board. But he governs like a Fascist, just as how he “ran” his businesses, just as he runs his family.

And you do realize that populism and fascism are not exclusive, right? That fascism is in fact a form of populism.

Anyway, this is all a sidetrack on you choosing to misinterpret Smatpi’s comment, and nothing that you have said has done anything to defend that misrepresentation, just to try to claim that we couldn’t possibly be in a forest, not with all these trees around.

The deplorables might believe it two years from now. But by then, the Republicans will have eased the leash out of Trump’s hand and will be telling the base that the stolen election is a reason for them to vote for Republican candidates. These people don’t do a lot of independent thinking; they just believe whatever is yelled at them the loudest. And Trump is about to lose his megaphone.

I’m completely with gdave on this. We’ve come to the point where people can’t just have opposing opinions; everybody who disagrees with me is evil or compromised by the Russians.

I think the current bowing to Trump is easily explainable by the GA elections. I think a few pols are also hoping to pick up the populist mantle from Trump when he is (finally!) out of office. If they can somehow transfer the Trumpists to themselves they will be a force to reckon with in the GOP.

Who said “every”?

Anyone? Nope.

Blackmail, leverage, sure. And the ones who don’t support Trump are largely the ones that aren’t worried about being blackmailed.

One, you are assuming that it’s just an affair. Two, you are assuming that individually blackmailing each senator is necessary, as opposed to making a few examples. Then any senator that does have some shady shit in their closet has to worry that it may be known, that it may be exposed.

Not secretly, not at all. Just listen to what he says publicly. They are certainly threatened and extorted. Just because he does it in public doesn’t mean that he doesn’t do it. Look at how he treats states that didn’t vote for him, at Governors who do not pay him enough respect.

There are not nearly as many conspiracies involved as you try to claim are necessary for the effects that we have seen.

What we have seen, what we do have evidence for, is attempts at blackmail, along with airing of secrets of those who did not support Trump. This is something that anyone who has not chosen to close their eyes can plainly see.

So, since we have evidence that blackmail and extortion, as well as grift and favoritism have been openly done, it is more on you to explain why you do not believe that these corrupt practices have no influence on the body politic. That even those who have not been approached with threats or favors may not believe that those threats and favors are there based on their behavior.

Sure, that’s a significant factor as well. And none of those are healthy for democracy either. But you seem to be asserting that that’s all it is, that there is no corruption, no extortion, no favoritism, and that’s a pretty tall assertion, especially given the evidence that he has done exactly those things.

That’s quite an unfair summary of what has been said, in this thread and others. And if that is truly what you believe has been said, then it is fair for you to disagree with that understanding.

But, if you actually pay attention to what is actually being said, then you could make an evaluation on that instead.

You have an opposing opinion, I don’t think that you are evil or compromised by Russians. I just think that you have an opinion on what others think, and will not be swayed by what they say otherwise.

There’s a lot of that, refusing to actually understand where someone is coming from, as that understanding would lead to cooperation, when competition is what is preferred.

If nothing else, there are more forces at work here that are trying their hardest to establish anti-democratic rule than just evil or the Russians. To limit to just those two is to ignore 90% of the other possibilities.

And the previous 4 years?

I agree, they want to keep this authoritarian streak going. That does not in any way instill me with any confidence in the future of our country.

They do seem to be quick to forget their friends. They may very well not even remember Trump in two years or even two months.

They are very slow to forget their enemies though. They may not recall who the election was stolen from, but they surely will remember who stole it.

Oh relax. I just find that quote rather silly. And paranoid. It reminds me of the instigators of the Satanic Panic of the 80’s. One was quoted as saying, “The fact that there’s no proof is the strongest evidence that this is happening.”

I don’t have the time or energy or frankly the desire to fight fires on three fronts.

@Ann_Hedonia, @k9bfriender, @Horatius, if the three of you agree on one common scheme (is it Russian active measures, or blackmail material on ubiquitous affairs by Washington politicos, or generalized political thuggery?), I’d be willing to continue the conversation.

By the way, @k9bfriender, I actually agree that at least some of the stuff you’re alleging is actually going on. But what you’re alleging is different from what @Ann_Hedonia is alleging, and very different from what @Horatius is alleging.

But, in general, if ordinary Republican voters are still supporting Donald Trump, why exactly is there a need for some nefarious scheme to explain why elected officials in safe Republican districts and states are still supporting him?

The Republicans can work with that. They have two years to convince low information voters that this was all a Democratic plot to attack the Republicans and people should vote for Republican candidates. They might even mention Trump’s name depending on how events go in the next two years.

But Trump himself will no longer be a factor in politics. He will have lost control of the Trump movement.

I didnt say “In the USA”.

Or maybe Marshall McLuhan. Nah, he hates Canada.

Or Marshawn Lynch. But I don’t think he will sign with a Canadian team.