Was there one at all? Is this point actually addressed in Christian/Jewish doctrine?
I’m just curious and too lazy to actually read the bible for myself. I tried once or twice but its tough going.
How long did it take to create time?
From the Christian viewpoint, God created the Heavens and the earth during the first day of creation, according to Genesis. However, the earth was not completely formed with all its attributes until the 6th day.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? – Job 38:4-7 (NIV)
This indicates that the angels were already around when God created the earth as we know it. This also jives with some other part of the Bible that talks about satan and his minions getting kicked out of heaven and being banished to the earth. Since satan was the head angel in heaven at one point, he had to have existed before the earth did.
Just MHO here but I believe the “in the beginning” verse, when it talks about “the heavens,” is referring to the stuff we see via the Hubble Space telescope. Not Heaven, which is a place in the spiritual realm, not the physical.
As far as when God created the angels, dunno. And no idea as to how much time (as we know it) lapsed in between the creation of the angels and the earth. shrug If the Bible tells us this, I’ve yet to see it.
That makes sense SnoopyFan, you’d kind of think the Angels and heaven would have been around for longer.
I had no idea Satan was the head Angel, where’d you get that from?
Also interesting point about heaven and “the heavens” I suppose that would be borne out by looking at the original Hebrew version…
deep breath
Verses that mention satan’s standing in heaven before his rebellion:
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [3]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15
Note: satan is sometimes called the morning star in the Bible. This is one of the places where he is referred to by that name. The KJV translation calls him “Lucifer” in verse 12.
Ezekiel says:
…" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [2] turquoise and beryl. [3]
Your settings and mountings [4] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you. Ezekiel 28:12-15
This verse refers to the King of Tyre, another one of his names.
“Head angel” may have been a bad term to use in my previous post. Many scholars think he was the worship leader in heaven (which probably is the job of the head angel). They believe this because of verse 11 that I quoted from Isaiah above. Also because some of them believe the passage I quoted in Ezekiel – where it mentions “settings” and “mountings” could better be translated as “tambourines” and “flutes.” Were you to put the three together: harps, tamborines and flutes, you have all three different types of instruments represented: strings, percussion and winds.
The idea of satan being the worship leader is speculation, of course, but a darn good one considering he is still making music today. The difference is the music he makes today (and no I am not saying that any secular music is straight from the devil) is made to glorify him, and not God.
Either way, he was a high ranking angel in heaven at one point, and now he’s not.
No cite, because I don’t remember where I read it, but I do recall reading that the Isaiah verses may have been talking about a king who had been overthrown rather than an angel. Anybody here have the full info?
Regarding the time frame, between creation of the “heavenly host” and earth, it may be an unanswerable question, even if you believe in creationism, since before the earth would have been created time would have been measured only in god’s terms, which wouldn’t necessarily have anything to do with human measurement.
No cite, because I don’t remember where I read it, but I do recall reading that the Isaiah verses may have been talking about a king who had been overthrown rather than an angel. Anybody here have the full info?
Regarding the time frame, between creation of the “heavenly host” and earth, it may be an unanswerable question, even if you believe in creationism, since before the earth would have been created time would have been measured only in god’s terms, which wouldn’t necessarily have anything to do with human measurement.
According to Jewish tradition, to answer the OP, some angels were created on the second day and others on the fifth. None were created on the first day (let alone earlier), so that people shouldn’t mistakenly think that G-d needed their assistance in creating the universe. (There was only one act of creatio ex nihilo, on the first day; during the remaining days of creation, G-d shaped the raw potential material into the various objects and creatures.)
Regarding Satan, fallen angels, etc.:
Jewish tradition sees Satan as just another angel, like the rest of them a servant of G-d, who has the two related jobs of (a) trying to convince people to do evil, and (b) serving as the prosecuting attorney against those who give in to such temptation. (See the opening chapters of Job, where the “sons of G-d” - the angels - are gathered before G-d, Satan among them, and G-d gives Satan the job of testing Job’s faith.) There’s never any idea of him being an independent actor. (See the Staff Report on angels.)
The passage from Isaiah is talking about the fall of the Babylonian empire, and to Nebuchadnezzar in particular. As far as I know, the identification of “Lucifer, son of the morning” with Satan is strictly a Christian interpretation: if I recall correctly, the Jewish commentaries explain this phrase as referring to Venus (the morning star), comparing the glory of the Babylonian empire to the brilliance of the planet in the sky.
As for the king of Tyre: Jewish tradition identifies him as Hiram, who centuries earlier had assisted Solomon in building the Temple (see I Kings 5:15ff in Jewish Bibles, or 5:1ff in Christian ones). The Midrash states that G-d granted him exceptional longevity and prosperity as a reward for his actions, and even allowed him to enter Paradise alive; his overweening pride, which Ezekiel condemns in this passage, caused him to be expelled from there and eventually defeated and killed by Nebuchadnezzar’s armies. I don’t know of any Jewish source that identifies him, or any of the references in this passage, with Satan or any other fallen angel.
Here I always thought the gap was seven cubits.