Just a hypothetical question:
I live in New York City. Suppose I were to wake up one morning and find that I was the only person in the city. All the infrastructure is still in place – there are just no people anywhere except for me. Assuming that I did not interfere with the electrical equipment and no one else came to the city to fix things, how long would the lights stay on?
And, just out of curiosity, how long could I expect to have running water/toilets/showers, etc.?
Zev Steinhardt
I don’t know the answer but we have talked about this before a few times over the years. IIRC, the answer was just hours to days for major utilities. They all require some degree of manual intervention and they are are somewhat inter-dependent. For example, a total electrical failure will cause havoc with other services in short order.
Not sure about NYC, but I did see a special the other week about this very scenario. They claimed that Hoover Dam would be capable of keeping the Vegas strip lite up for several years. At least until the dynos coolings lines clogged up and it went into an automated shutdown mode.
I saw that Life Without People show, too. The Hoover Dam would keep running for years, but its power source is naturally flowing water. The time for more conventional power was far shorter, but I don’t remember how long. Only days, I think.
I’ve been to the Hoover Dam, and other hydroelectric facilities, and there is just no conceivable way the power would flow for years, absolutely not a chance in hell. A LOT of labour goes in to keeping those plants running. The turbines cannot run for years without constant maintenance; they’re perpetually being brought down to have parts replaced. Even if the turbines continue to run, which they wouldn’t, that also does not mean that the power will continue to be delivered from the dam to Las Vegas (or any other city that gets power from Hoover.) The electrical transfer stations also require a lot of intervention to run properly.
This wasn’t idle speculation. On the show, they went to Hoover Dam and interviewed an engineer and workers there. It was determined that what would stop the dam from providing power was the eventual clogging of the water intake pipes.
I guess they might build a little bit of automatic backup and redundancy in there so that if nobody shows up in the morning the whole thing doesn’t go to hell.
Actually getting the electricity to Vegas is another thing, but the people who worked at the dam said that it would be running on its own for a very long time.
I haven’t seen Life Without People, but here’s one excellent article on how long the lights would stay on:
When the zombies take over, how long till the electricity fails?
Wiki on Life Without People
*Fossil fuel fired power plants, which are largely automated, would remain running for a few hours until their fuel supplies are depleted. Within hours, lights begin going out all over the world as electrical systems start failing.
Subway systems like the New York City MTA require pumps to keep the groundwater at bay and without humans to turn them on, most subways will be flooded within 36 hours.
After 48 hours, nuclear power plants will enter a safe mode automatically due to reduced power consumption and will not meltdown. Wind turbines will cease operation once their lubrication fails.*
I’ll back Vern. The program definitely flat out said that Hoover Dam would keep functioning without people & Vegas would keep lit for about 2 years (in the same cite above) & would likely be the last place on earth to lose power. And, the program showing an unseemly and odd emphasis on Hoover Dam, implies the Dam might be the last vestige of our civilization left on earth - lasting ~10,000 years (same cite)
Una’s Mailbag report, linked above, suggests otherwise:
Unless Las Vegas is off the grid when the operators disappear, I doubt it would fall into Una’s definition of an “island of service in a rural area.”
Well, I certainly don’t have the chops or inclination to say that Una is mistaken overall. Perhaps she was speaking generally or perhaps she didn’t check deeply into Hoover-as-exception or perhaps things have changed since the report was written.
Being GQ I can offer that the Life Without People program spoke to the Engineers at Hoover. The guys actually running the place said all this on camera. They said that it is all automated and doesn’t require people on a day to day basis to run. What is written in wiki is an accurate reflection of what these guys-who-would-know said: i.e… What would likely ultimately shut down the power at Hoover was clogged water pipes in about two years. They showed Vegas as one light on on a darkened globe.
I beleive that they focused on Hoover Dam because it’s A) HUGE, B) fairly remote from everybody to start with and C) Vegas is a fairly straight shot from Hoover and it’s possible that there is only one sub-station between the two. But I too tend to think that there esimate may be a bit to optimistic. Vegas would need to be taken off of the main grid and only supply Vegas itself for there senario to work IMO. Even then Vegas would most likely burn to the ground in an uncontrolled fire before two years was up.
But as for the damn itself and the on going maintance that causes temporary shutdowns, this is what makes it likely to keep on going, a good preventaive maintance schedule. It gets shut down for maintanance not becuase they have too, but because they are continuously upgrading and replacing valves, controls and plumbing.
But as of course, as we know from The Stand Vegas is going to be where all of the evil people flock to serve Satan in the end of days. :eek: Satan does likes his bright lights and AC controlled casinos after all.
Here is the first 10 minutes of Life after People.
At 3:00 they talk about the OP and the answers here (and Una’s answer) all play out as pretty much right.
At 4:40 they talk to Hoover Dam Facilities Manager Mr. Brungia and he first talks about Hoover. That first introduces the idea that Hoover will be able to stay on-line generating power for up to two years without people. There is more detail later in the show. All I can say is that is what these guys say on camera. YMMV.
Thanks for the link. You got to love the History Channel. But is does appear that the engineer was making a best case senario for the plant going on for two years. At first he states weeks, then says months and then possibly years. You really can’t blame the guy for dramitizing it up for TV, this was his big break and he got a chance to show the world what he does for a living; working on a very impressive /complicated project. One so impressive and complicated that it will be running two years after we are all dead, damn I’m good. 
Looks like the National Geographic Channel has there own show called Aftermath Population Zero that covers the same subject. They stated that even hydroelctric power would be down after less that a day. 
This question has been addressed in the past by various folks writing end-of-the-world scenarios. One of the more convincing (and I can’t recall which it was) had hydroelectric failing when the lubrication to the various bearings ran out, and things froze in place. The timetable was relatively short – weeks or months.
As for water, it depends on how the water system was left. If all the faucets were shut off, and you had a good head of pressure, and you were the only one using the water, the pressure would stay until you’d exhausted the local tank. If the automatic refulling system was on, you’d have water until the power failed, and then some. I suspect, though, that depending on your EotW scenario, somebody would leave a pipe open somewhere, and when your power failed that would be it for that particular water supply.
That’s interesting. National Geographic Channel’s similarly-themed Aftermath: Population Zero (which ran last night) postulated that nuclear plants would eventually have meltdowns (after diesel-powered backup generators failed).
I wonder which is correct.
Or to put it another way, he got a chance to show the world what he does for a living, and eloquently declared himself more or less redundant. 
My wife made the same observation as you after watching the show, which is an easy conclusion to come to for someone not familiar with nuclear power. As a former Navy nuclear operator, I wondered how the show could come to that conclusion. For an operating reactor, you obviously need cooling water. After a reactor automatically shuts down, the residual decay heat would be a concern, but only for a relatively short time. (Decay heat is what led to the Three Mile Island meltdown). Decay heat immediately after reactor shutdown is equal to about 6.5% of the operating power, subsequently decreases to about 1% of operating power within 1 hour of shutdown, then continues to decrease asymptotically over the course of a few days. However, automatic cooling systems should be able to handle the decay heat.
So anyway, I finally watched the show myself last night, and actually, they did NOT say that the nuclear power plants would melt down. Instead, their concern was with the spent fuel in holding pools.
I’m not an expert regarding spent nuclear fuel, but my initial reaction is that the show’s concern is greatly overblown. I find it hard to believe that that much residual decay heat would be produced from spent nuclear fuel. After all, the point of the Yucca Mountain storage facility is to encase spent fuel in glass containment with no cooling water at all. It’s my understanding that spent fuel repositories do not depend on active cooling (which would require sustained backup power), but instead use passive cooling (such as some type of natural recirculation).
Anyway, the show’s repeated emphasis on the supposed aftereffects of spent nuclear fuel somehow resulting in catastrophic meltdowns makes me think that someone involved with the show has an anti-nuclear power agenda.
In reality, of course, we surviving Boulder City folk would chop the power lines to Vegas and move our civilization to a small cluster around the dam. Then we’d continue to defend the dam from the zombies / starving hordes / cannibalistic armies and fix whatever turbines failed until we could spread civilization to the rest of the world again. (See also Lucifer’s Hammer.)
Sadly, we’d have to take out all the Colorado River dams upstream of us to ensure a steady flow of power. Sorry, Lake Powell … that’s just the way it goes.
ETA: On a more serious note, isn’t Una’s report saying that the plants would go down because when part of the grid fails it forces the plants that are still online to shut down lest they try to supply too much power and overload? So if you could isolate power plants from the grid (like Cerowyn mentioned), they should still be able to produce power as long as things in the plant are running, right?
First you are going to have to take it away from the Decepticons. 