Yea, ultra-expensive amplifiers are almost as ridiculous as ultra-expensive speaker cables. Here is a $180K monoblock from Audio Note. Capacitors with silver electrodes? Yep, they sound so much better. :dubious: I love the fact that the THD is less than 5%.
Agree. Which is why I said,
Back in the day I lusted for a B&O 1900 for the looks … sigh
I am not an extremist by any means, but not all measurements correlate with audible differences. Some things that are measured cannot be heard, and some things that can be heard are not easily measurable. Absolute polarity, for instance, can be measured but I cannot hear any difference if I reverse the + and – on *both *leads. I have two sets of speaker cables, both medium quality, and I can hear subtle differences, but I am not sure whether there are measurable differences between them. I do think that transient phenomena are more important than steady-state phenomena. TIM is more important that THD.
There are things you can not measure with numbers whether you want to admit it or not. If you don’t agree I’ll have my son explain it to you. He thought about designing audio equipment for a living but instead he does research for the Air Force on lasers. I’d bet a dollar to a doughnut that he knows far more about this stuff than you ever will when it comes to the science end of it. And again, he says he’s never heard a “high end” system that compares with what I have sitting in my living room.
Tell me, how do you measure presence? It’s more that dampening. It’s more than frequency response. It’s more than response time. It’s getting all those things to work together and have the timing just right. You do know that speaker designers generally pick the drivers they use by ear don’t you? Yes they demand a certain level of scientific quality but there is more to it than that. Here’s a quote from a well known speaker designer on picking drivers, “I use a method that’s so crude it might sound dumb; I put the driver on large, IEC-sized baffle (135 cm by 85 cm) and listen to it!” Yes some things are measured and designed by computer to avoid coloration problems and standing wave issues etc. etc… Crossovers and cabinets probably get the most use from computer design programs and the methods used to measure frequency responses. In the past (50’s and 60’s) some boxes created frequency spikes and drop offs that were so extreme that they didn’t even show up on measuring systems (i.e. oscilloscopes) . It wasn’t uncommon to see a 20db spike from a standing wave and the equipment just couldn’t see it because it was outside the range of that equipment. I know about rigid drivers and dampening with various substances and matching crossover diodes with drivers to get the frequency response problems of one to fix the problems with the other. I know about the limitations of the traditional drivers compared to ribbons and planars too. These things are not beyond the typical audio enthusiast despite what you think. Most people who are truly passionate about this stuff (as I have been for 40 years) have studied all sorts of papers, articles and discussions. We are not completely lost as you suggest. People can learn their entire life and it doesn’t take a formal education to get them from A to B. But I also have access to someone who came very close to taking up audio design as a career. None of the measured results I have talked about (and I have only touched on a few of them) can get you past what people really want. I’ve heard all sorts of wacky theories about designs only to find the end result to be far less than stellar. And a lot of the equipment I auditioned was high dollar stuff for the time including the “audiophile” level stuff. Again some of that stuff sounds great. But not all of it does. In fact I’ve heard very expensive equipment sound terrible. I’m guessing that you too have picked the equipment you tout by listening to it. I can certainly point you to equipment that is very expensive and was designed with the latest technologies yet it either sounds terrible or has glaring problems that cause it to fail completely in short order.
The bottom line is this. If you can’t hear the differences there’s no amount of measurement in the world that will make a difference. After all that is the be all and end all of audio equipment.
BTW I nearly went into audio design myself. If I had known it would have turned out to be so lucrative for a small operation I would have done just that. Yes I was studying to be an electrical engineer at the time but I found it boring and switched subjects. But I learned a good bit along the way and again I’ve produced the kind of audio people like strain so hard to recreate so well. And I did it with my ears like most good sound men do. There’s a place in the world for roadies (I was asked to do that too BTW) and very little of what they do involves measurements.
The difference between us is I know there are other ways to skin a cat. You don’t seem to get that. It is ALL about what we hear and all the engineering in the world won’t guarantee a product comes out right. The only way to know how well it all works together is to listen to it. Imagine that. Not one other thing matters actually.
One last thing. I see you completely ignored my EVIDENCE that you were wrong about the use of Phillips parts in B&O equipment. Since you did that I will now ignore you. Bye bye Mr. Expert.
You are wrong. You contradict yourself by using the word “measure”.
Had you said that you can have an opinion on something without numbers then yes, of course you are right but the rest of your post just sounds like typical audiophile self-justification.
Have you ever tested yourself via a proper double-blind protocol?
Presence = √(ambience x depth). Come on, we all know that!
Sounds like you’ve been reading too much Stereophile Magazine. 
Amplifiers, peramps, CD players, and cables do not have any “mysterious” qualities that can’t be measured; all the info you need is in the test data, assuming such measurements were taken. Measurements such as frequency response, phase response, dynamic range, damping, distortion, noise, etc. completely define the sonic qualities of the component.
Speakers, OTOH, are the only component where it’s possible for you to hear things that were not measured. It’s simply not practical to measure the magnitude and phase response for every point in space in front of a speaker. Which is why a person who wants to build a high-quality audio system should spend most of their time (and money) on selecting the right speakers.
Again, we may be able to compare two components’ measurements, but listening to them is the ultimate test.
You can measure any characteristic except a listener’s preference.
Only if you believe you can hear something that can’t be measured.
Cannot *easily *be measured or cannot be measured yet. In principle, yes, but not necessarily now. The implicit assumption you’re making is that we can *now *measure everything that’s relevant. That is untrue.
I’ve probably got the most “high-end” system of my circle of friends, and it’s just an Onkyo receiver, NHT 1.5s and Super Zero speakers and a Velodyne ULD sub. The sub is 20 years old, and I replaced the outer surround last year as the foam rubber finally died. The NHTs were all acquired through eBay over the years - the 1.5s are at least 12 years old.
Old as it all may seem, it’s good enough to let me hear the difference between a CD and whatever Apple’s highest bitrate lossless format is.
No, something that we have not identified and measured…yet.
You cannot measure what a person can hear. The electrical signal picked up by a recording, fed to an amplifier and then reproduced by speakers is in the end tested by a microphone which is not a human ear. Some of the best amplifiers look dreadful on paper and the sound coming out of a speaker has to reproduce the sound of a room full of people and instruments.
I don’t buy that there is any feature in the sounds produced that can be picked up by an ear and not by a microphone or other testing equipment.
Unless of course it is purely in the individuals perception of the sound produced. (because we know that the ear is not particularly sensitive and the brain has to fill in a lot of the detail) In which case that individual’s opinion is only true for them and them alone. Subjective and therefore pretty worthless.
Here’s a neat list of trials regarding audiophile claims. As suspected, most of the claims are balls and people can’t distinguish between components better than chance.
So you’re saying amplifiers and preamps have magical qualities that can’t be measured using distortion analyzers and network analyzers?
I agree that a lot of claims are hooey, but not all of them. The best thing is to be skeptical. Take stuff home and listen to it. If it sounds better than what you have and you can afford it, that’s all that matters. Last year I sold an old power amp (Denon POA-1500 Mk II) that I had bought new in 1986 and replaced it with a used Sony TA-N55ES (ca 1993?) because the Sony sounds better, even though it produces slightly less power. I run my CD player straight into the power amp, using the variable output from the CD player as a volume control. The sound is great. In A/B comparisons, the Sony sounded more lifelike and dynamic, despite having a lower power rating (110 w/p/c for the Sony vs 160 w/p/c for the Denon). My speakers are Yamaha NS-1000M, one of the best speakers ever made.
What does “sounding dynamic” entail?
When the music gets louder and softer, bass pounding, etc., the Sony seems to have more ‘life’. The Denon sounds more ‘polite’ and reserved.