How many people did Scott Peterson kill?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I find it bizarre that the question revolves for some around a murderer’s attitude and feelings–he thought of the fetus as a child, so he was killing a child as well as a woman?

Does that mean that a killer who doesn’t believe in the basic humanity of his adult victims is less guilty?

I’m not inclined to give the murderer’s opinions on the matter any weight. This was a double killing, no matter how he thought of it. A baby in the womb at eight months is much closer, in all senses except the event of birth itself, to a born baby than it is to an embryo.

62

If you think this is legally the case, you’re wrong.

If you think this is morally the case, you’re… not right.

63

And from my own personal experience, would you say that I (the father) have the right for my wife to carry to term a tubal pregnancy because I am exercising my “right”?

The father has an opinion; the mother has the choice (right). I don’t know how else it could be interpreted.

As for the Connor (or viable fetus), would you be more comfortable with the term “Illegal Termination” rather than Murder even though the punishment would be exactly the same between the two?

64

Originally Posted by Susanann View Post
…a father would have as much right to abort his baby as the mother.

  1. Legal…schmegal. The law has changed so many times over the past 100 years all across the United States, and it will change again. One cannot hang their hat on whatever a particular law or any popularity of the day might be at any given time. The “truth” is not whimsical.
  2. Morally: Of course I am right. The mother and father have equal rights and responsiblities regarding their child. The moral principle of equal parenthood rights and equal parenthood responsibilities, is ultimate, is universal, is irrespective of transitory laws of any day, and is forever.
65

Ok, just for shits and giggles, could you explain LOGISTICALLY (not ethically, not morally, not legally - logistically) HOW this would work?

How, physically, can a man effect the termination of his child/fetus being carried by a woman without her consent without it being a willful assault against her person.

Baby is in there. Mom wants baby to stay put. How, exactly, do you propose that dad gets the baby out without violating mom?

I’m intrigued.

66

**You sound like somebody who wants to rob a bank, but in doing so you dont want to violate any state and local gun laws while robbing the bank!!! **

There is a tree in your way blocking the forest from your view.

Yeah, OK, so maybe you will have to break some vague and obscure gun law while robbing a bank, and maybe you also might commit some secondary crime while aborting a baby.

As far as aborting someone else’s baby, Another crime might very well occur depending on the example, perhaps assault, perhaps slipping a drug to someone without their permission, or whatever. Regardless, terminating a fetus usually and almost certainly be some other lessor crime, something other than murder, and that separate lessor crime would require its own proof.

Of course, another way, and easier way, to avoid your quandary, to avoid your confusion with morality issues and legal issues avoiding our court system with slick attorneys and unjust rulings, would be for neither parent to kill the baby, or to just not get pregnant in the first place.

67

It was my understanding that a murderers intent, what he thinks, his motivation, and his mental capacity are all factors that a court, and a jury, would consider when somebody kills someone.

Isnt there a difference between:
pre-meditated murder and
involuntary manslaughter?

And isnt that difference the intent/attitude/feelings of the murderer?

If Scott Peterson honestly and truely thought that the unborn baby in the womb was simply a clump of tissue, if as far as he knew it was legal to abort/kill fetuses, then did Scott Peterson actually and knowingly commit a “murder” of that fetus/clump of tissue?

68

**You sound like somebody who wants to rob a bank, but in doing so you dont want to violate any state and local gun laws while robbing the bank!!! **

There is a tree in your way blocking the forest from your view.

Yeah, OK, so maybe you will have to break some vague and obscure gun law while robbing a bank, and maybe you also might commit some secondary crime while aborting a baby.

As far as aborting someone else’s baby, Another crime might very well occur depending on the example, perhaps assault, perhaps slipping a drug to someone without their permission, or whatever. Regardless, terminating a fetus usually and almost certainly be some other lessor crime, something other than murder, and that separate lessor crime would require its own proof.

Of course, another way, and easier way, to avoid your quandary, to avoid your confusion with morality issues and legal issues avoiding our court system with slick attorneys and unjust rulings, would be for neither parent to kill the baby, or to just not get pregnant in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

Huh. Hon, I think your cheese has slid clean off your cracker. I’m out.

69

Especially since this was hardly incidental. He didn’t kill a pregnant woman, he killed her (in part) because she was pregnant – not to mention especially physically vulnerable – and that deserves special recognition in the same way killing a child or long-time abuse victim should.

70

The “truth” is also not defined by any one person, least of all silly ones, and your latter point is just silly. Even the most cursory glance at history indicates that there is no “ultimate” or “universal” moral principle of anything, let alone parenthood.

71

There is nothing “silly” about parental rights and responsibilities.

(The one who is “silly”… is the fool who scoffs and mocks of parental rights and responsibilities)

72

He killed two, yup. An eight-month-old foetus is viable - not even tenably viable, like at, say, 6 months, but totally viable. Giving birth at 36 weeks isn’t even considered premature (at least not in the UK, but presumably in most countries too).

Whether both killings count as murder, I’m less sure of. If he had attempted to kill both of them, and managed to kill the unborn baby but the mother had lived, would he have been convicted of murder? Has this ever happened, that anyone knows of? I guess the charge would vary state-by-state.

73

He killed two people. The second just hasn’t passed through the birth canal yet.

74

I said two, since he intended to kill Connor as much as Laci.

75

If the mother had had an abortion at eight months (say for medical reasons), would you have said that a person died that day, since the baby “just hasn’t passed through the birth canal yet”?

76

To me, the only reasonable positions people can take on this are as follows:

[ol]
[li]If you believe the fetus at eight months is not a person, then:[/li][LIST=a]
[li]If the mother aborts it, no person has died. No one is guilty of anything.[/li][li]If the father assaults the mother and kills the fetus, no person has died and the father is guilty of assault against the mother. (The same as assaulting her and removing some internal tissue that is not necessary for her survival)[/li][/ol]
[li]If you believe the fetus at eight months is a person, then:[/li][LIST=a]
[li]If the mother aborts it, a person has died, but it is “justifiable loss of human life” (justified either by medical reasons involving the health of the mother, or, for some people, justified by giving pre-eminence to a woman’s dominion over her body over another person’s right to life)[/li]
[li]If the father assaults the mother and kills the fetus, a person has died and the father is guilty of assault against the mother and of murder of the baby.[/li]
[/LIST]
[/LIST]
In this thread I see all sorts of criss-cross beliefs on the personhood of the fetus at eight months and whether the father is guilty of murder or not. None of those responses make sense, especially the ones that take into account whether the father considered the fetus a baby.

It should not matter to society whether the mother or father considers the fetus a person.

Society makes a decision on whether someone is a person, and once that decision is made, the killing of that someone is either murder/manslaughter or is nothing.

For example, society has decided that 1-year olds are people, so no matter how much some father believes that his 1-year old is not a person, if he kills it, it is murder.

It’s not clear what society has decided for 8-month old fetuses, but whatever the decision, our conclusion as to what crime was committed, if any, should follow one of the above conditionals (1a, 1b, 2a, 2b). We can’t just pick and choose our conclusions, depending on whim.

There are no “conditional people” who are people for some of us, but not people for the rest of us.

77

Does that ever actually happen, for medical reasons? It’d take the same amount of time as an emergency caesarian.

78

First, your poll is no good. Scott Peterson killed zero people. In fact he’s never even hit another person, never even got a traffic ticket. He would have died to protect his wife or his son.

Second, when Laci was abducted she was 7 1/2 months pregnant, not 8 months. However the baby they found was full term.

Third, the baby was to be named Conner, not Connor.

Fourth, as to intent, the woman who killed them wanted Conner to live. She didn’t care about Laci, but probably would have killed her or let her die in any case.

Fifth, “The coroner said he was better preserved because he was inside her.” He said that, but it’s nonsense. The pregnant uterus decomposes far quicker than the non pregnant uterus. Dr B Peterson shot out more BS than a jet powered manure spreader.

Sixth, in a very telling case prosecuted by the same team, Gilbert Cano stabbed his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach to kill the fetus, 1 month younger than Conner was, and then strangled the mother, Martha Moreno, who already had a 10 yr old daughter. The prosecutors dealt this case down to second degree and Cano got 17 years, with parole quite possible. So much for impartiality.

I also note that the state attorney general didn’t claim that this case was a “slam dunk”. In fact he never commented on it. Martha Moreno was very pretty, but she wasn’t white.

Seventh, “Scott Peterson honestly and truly thought that the unborn baby in the womb was simply a clump of tissue.” Clearly not. You don’t decorate a special nursery with your own hands for a “clump of tissue.”

79

A Voice of Sanity–Could be please provide some links foryour claims. Particularly the “Fourth, as to intent, the woman who killed them [who] wanted Conner to live. She didn’t care about Laci, but probably would have killed her or let her die in any case.”
Who was she? Where is she? Why did she throw Conor into the ocean instead of keeping him? Why didn’t she cut the fetus out of Laci instead of wanting for her to give birth? Where was Laci being held and for how long?

What’s your take on Amber Frye? Why did Scott tell her he was a widower?

Why did Scott have an altered appearance,his passport and $15K in cash when he was arrested?

80

The Evidence

Like this woman An Example of a Fetal abduction

A woman aged between 20 and 40 approx.

Not far from Modesto

She didn’t. He was never in the ocean.

She did cut him out.

Somewhere close to Modesto.

Who says he did?

What’s wrong with that? Why does it matter?