Back when I was in high school in the 80’s in Missouri we only had to take 1 credit in math. Now my son takes 3 - algebra 1, algebra 2, and one other like trigonometry or geometry.
Granted in many fields like engineering you need these so you can go onto subjects like calculus then differential equations and so forth.
Do we need 3 years of high school math for a general student?
I propose we need math but it should be practical math such as accounting and understanding of business and finance such as how to analyze a loan and how compounded interest works. Why? Because no matter what field you go into you will need those skills.
What do you all think?
Questions:
How many years of HS math were you required to have?
How many years of HS math do you think we should require?
Would you prefer HS students take more practical math courses like financial math over math with more scientific applications like geometry?
If I’m remembering the system correctly, you got a half credit per semester of class, and we needed 3 math credits.
For most students, that seems like enough. If my high school was indicative, it’s a struggle for a lot of students to pass three years of math (sad, I know).
I agree that practical, direct-real-life-application courses should be offered, if not mandatory. (But I do consider geometry to be “practical math”)
I teach math in an Adult Ed program for our local community college. Basically, I teach GED prep courses for adults who had dropped out of high school at some point and now want to get their HSE.
Here’s my take on it. The U.S. education system is designed so that everyone leaving high school should, theoretically, be ready for either the workforce or college. However, most of the math that high school students have to learn have no “real-world” applications to speak of. Many can factor a polynomial or balance an equation—basic pre-algebra stuff—but don’t know the first thing about balancing their checkbook. They have no idea what FICA withholding is, how insurance premiums and deductibles work, or how to calculate intertest of any type—from basic compound interest to the actual money going out of pocket on a home or car loan with x% interest.
Now math, clearly, isn’t pointless. It not only teaches students actual math but it also hones critical thinking skills and helps them practice thinking “outside the box” a bit, as well as how to tackle problems systematically.
Having said that… yes, I think most high school students have too much math on their plate. Or perhaps I should say, they have the wrong kind of math. Making high school students take something like trig is pointless unless that student plans on going into a math-intensive field like engineering or chemistry. Hell, I took trig in college, I teach math, and have never used trig once since the day I took my trig final in 2013. Is it useful? Of course. Should it be mandatory? Never.
My students have to learn polynomials, functions, logarithms, linear and quadradic equations… there’s quite a list. But most (all, probably, unless we specifically teach it in class) don’t know how to balance their checkbook.
So I think high school math curriculums need to be completely axed and re-created from scratch using real-world math concepts and teaching students what they need to know to actually function in society. If they need calculus or trigonometry for their career, they can learn it in college. Take out that mandatory pre-calc class and add in a “how to compute and file your taxes” class. The 2014 revision to the GED test took a couple steps in that direction, but did not go nearly far enough IMO.
My answer is ‘all of them’. The more math kids have, especially prob and stat, the more they’ll be able to cope with the things they’re presented with as adults.
It’s easy to say, “What application does algebra or calc have” and blow it off. But the truth is what they teach are ways to approach problems and deal with them. Without that we have more people who will be confronted with problems they’re not trained to deal with.
But I’m partisan. I finished all of my school’s math curriculum by mid-sophomore year - it was a private school but not a great one - and they had to order special coursework for me. It’s served me well.
4, since I was in the Applied Sciences track. If I’d chosen Accounting as one of my optionals that would have been 2 years of financial math (it wasn’t only plain book-keeping, but stuff such as running the calculations behind different types of financial products); I chose Draftsmanship.
Well, that depends on the track: trades vs humanities vs life sciences vs physical/applied sciences vs art vs…
Again it depends on the track. People aiming for careers in the sciences often could use a better understanding of statistics, which tradespeople don’t particularly care about; people aiming for PoliSci or Economics… well, it’s not so much that they could use a better understanding of stats as that the rest of us would benefit from them understanding stats better.
We didn’t have checkbooks, but basic financial math was 5th grade. Compound interest, yay! Multiple fees, hooray! It’s come handy many times; for example, when I proved to our company’s well-meaning HR manager that the 401(k) being offered were shit: the fees were so high that they ate up amounts equivalent to several years’ worth of interest.
Algebra and calc teach ways to approach problems and deal with them, if you understand them. But a lot of kids get on the “math is a class where you try your best to learn absurd patterns of incomprehensible actions”-track before or while they’re in Algebra.
Maybe forcing all students through these classes at this tempo is the best way to ensure as large a number of them learn these things as possible, but I doubt it. I think offering more options to catch up later on when some actual application motivates the students to understand the math would be a much better use of resources. Make the students who struggle do extensive household math and math literacy (reading math problems for understanding) instead, and learn the basic understanding of algebra and statistics that way.
I always chuckle a little when people bring up balancing a checkbook as a life skill that should be taught in HS. I imagine all these HS and early twenties pulling out their checkbooks at the grocery checkout, putting on their reading glasses, and saying to the cashier in a shaky voice “Now, how much is the total again honey?”
How many years of HS math were you required to have?
3 yrs for those on the college prep track; 2 yrs for those on the general track; I took 4
Kiddo, graduated in 2016, was required to take 4 years of higher math. He took pre-algebra, algebra 1 and algebra 2 in middle school; then geometry, trig, calcuclus and something else, maybe more calculus?
How many years of HS math do you think we should require?
Probably should take at least basic algebra and geometry; obviously should take what their desired college requires if they are college bound
Would you prefer HS students take more practical math courses like financial math over math with more scientific applications like geometry?
In general, I would like to see more life skills taught including practical math; but I also think basic algebra and geometry have a lot of practical applications.
I always urged my son and daughter to take as much math and science as they could, and I was able to demonstrate why I thought that was a good idea.
When I was cutting down a tall tree, I’d ask them how they would go about estimating the height of the tree to determine whether it would, say, hit the house. This would lead to a discussion of right triangles, trigonometry, etc. During a drive, I’d tell them my gas tank held 14 gallons, my gauge told me I had 1/4 tank, I averaged 20 mpg, so how far before we run out of gas? When we stopped for a meal, I’d tell them our check was $40 and I want to leave a 20% tip, how much do I leave?
For whatever reason, they played along with my silliness.
ETA: My daughter is now a nurse, and uses math all the time. My son is a prison corrections officer and jokingly gives me examples of using math at work.
This stuff should definitely be taught to HS students, and perhaps could even replace some math, but I’m not sure it should be called a “math class”. It should perhaps be called something like “practical finance”, and it should strike a balance between understanding the principles of concepts like percentage, interest, deductible, etc., and just following procedures to calculate them.
[QUOTE=Lancia]
Take out that mandatory pre-calc class and add in a “how to compute and file your taxes” class.
[/QUOTE]
IMO this is a terrible idea, at least as stated. Teaching kids how to collect very specific numbers to fill out a very specific form is just going to leave them bewildered when the tax forms change.
If we replace a higher math class like pre-calculus with something like the “practical finance” course I mentioned, it should be geared not to filling out specific forms, but to the general ideas of things like percentages, progressive tax rates for different tax brackets, using numerical tables, deductions, rounding, withholding, and so on. Filling out tax forms is an important application of such concepts, but it should not be the primary goal of the course.
Just filling out various financial forms is like drivers’ ed: It’s a necessary skillset and we should absolutely teach it to students, but it’s a life-skills subject, not an academic one. Some aspects of academic subjects can help you understand hot to fill out forms, just like they can help you understand driving, but life-skills training per se should not replace academic subjects in the curriculum.
Yes to academic subjects like math incorporating more useful life-skills applications, but No to actually replacing academic subjects with task-specific life-skills training.
You could as easily ask how much history do students really need or how much exposure to classic literature do students need. As a math major and stats PhD, I’m hopelessly biased, but I find that in terms of every day life, next to reading and writing, math is potentially the most useful subject you could learn in school. The more math you know and feel comfortable with, the more applications you see in every day life. I always note with wry amusement that the people who claim math has little application tend to be the same people who hated “word problems”.
The problem with math, however, is that it is also probably the most unforgiving of subjects. Unlike something like history or writing, you can’t sort of muddle through. A poor writer can still put words on paper and come out with a mediocre essay and get credit, and while you might not remember all of the dates on a history test, if you read the material you probably remember at least few. But with math, an answer is either right or wrong. If you don’t understand the process, or your mind can’t make the logical leaps, which rely more on instinct than rote memorization, then you are going fail. Also unlike other subjects, math builds very heavily on what came before it. So if you fall behind and miss one concept on the way up, its going to continue to hold you back in all future math classes. This is why math is one of the most hated/dreaded subjects and why I might be loathe to make hard requirements.
As to the OP’s questions, I think I was required to have 2 or 3 years of math (I forget which), and I think that that is a reasonable requirement. As to what sort should be taught that is tricky. In order to consider any STEM career you are going need to be comfortable with advanced algebra, and analytic geometry before you get to college. But for reasons defined above, making that or anything approaching that an absolute requirement, will derail the academic careers of too many students who for one reason or another just don’t “get” math. For them, couple of years worth of classes in finance, probability, and logical reasoning might be more appropriate. But this would require that a student make what amounts to a life long career choice at around age 13, a time when children are still in the process of learning who they are and what they like.
I took 4 as that was ‘strongly recommended’ for entrance to a Florida public college. I didn’t plan on going to a state school but ended up basically being forced to. I didn’t get algebra in 8th grade, so I took Algebra I, geometry, Algebra II, and pre calculus.
I think students need at least 3 years of math at the high school level. I believe we had a placement test for Algebra, you either took a pre-Algebra class, regular Algebra I, or advanced Algebra I freshman year unless you had it in 8th grade and did well enough to test out. I was in advanced Algebra I and there were definitely kids that had taken 8th grade Algebra but didn’t master enough to test out completely.
For those wanting to take AP calculus as a senior, there was an option to take Algebra II and Geometry concurrently in sophomore year, precalculus junior year, AP calculus senior year. Unfortunately for me, since I was in band, I couldn’t do this since I also had Spanish.
.
I don’t think that schools need to feature practical math in a math class. Rather, they should do like my school did and have a weekly life skills class senior year. We did this during senior year American Government/Economics. Once a week, we’d have a special lecture about applying for college, how to register to vote, credit cards, dealing with homesickness at college. This was also the time for the usual anti drug and anti suicide lectures. My Government/Econ class was advanced, I believe they covered a few different topics in the non-college prep classes.
Two years of high school math. Algebra and geometry were avoidable for a general diploma. I took algebra 1 and geometry.
Two years is fine, with general math courses being available for non-college bound diplomas.
Maybe, depending on whether they’re going to college, trade school, or just out to work.
There has been a trend in Georgia for the last thirty years of piling on more and more requirements just to graduate high school. Algebra 2 or “its equivalent” is required now. I know academics here may disagree, but I really don’t think it should be necessary just to graduate high school. I think the requirement just reduces the number of classes a kid can take because he wants to take the class. “The equivalent” amounts to two other year long classes, and that takes the choice of another elective away!
I don’t necessarily know about “prefer,” but I do think it would be more appropriate for some students than others. I mean, I did advanced algebra, geometry, pre-calc, and AP calc, but we did learn A=pe[sup]rt[/sup] continuous compounding interest along the way. Basic compound interest was introduced pretty early on–probably my first year (but I did do an accelerated course, so probably year two for most.) So it’s not like the more “theoretical” math classes avoid these topics.
Yeah—I was tempted to ask, facetiously, “What’s a checkbook?”
When I was in high school, one of the classes we were required to take was “Consumer Education” or “Consumer Economics.” That was a long time ago, and I don’t remember what it covered, but I believe it included things like how checks work, how interest works, etc. (This was not classified as a Math class.)
I’ve never studied any accounting. For those who have, is it fair to call it “math”?
I think we should require 4 years of math to graduate but i suppose that would lead to a lot of people not graduating after they failed a math class but generally I’d prefer to make a high school degree worth more not less.i understand the 3 year requirement but would prefer 4.
I think algebra is increadiby useful and commonly use geometry and trig in everything from building fences to measuring how much paint I need to buy. I would probably substitute probably and statistics for pre-clac for everyone. I’ve never balanced a checkbook so I’m not sure why people are so hung up on that being important hell I haven’t written a check in a decade. Understanding interest and compounding is a part of algebra so I don’t see why we need a special life skills math class we just need to make sure people understand the math we’re actually teaching them.
If we’re dropping classes from the curriculum I’d shit can English down to two years and free up room in the schedule that way.
At least in the case of things like algebra/pre-calculus/trigonometry.
Part of the reason these are stressed so much in high school is that, although not everybody needs them, some people really do, and it’s a lot easier to take them in sequence than to try to catch up on them later. Taking these classes keeps some doors open that would otherwise be closed.
I graduated in 1969, New York. I don’t know how much math I was required to take, but I took AP Calculus in senior year, along with a computer class that was taught out of the math department.
The problem with two tracks of math is that you are forcing kids going into 9th or 10th grades to decide on their future. Not teaching algebra means they can never go to a tech school. Why limit them.
I’m all for a life skills class, but you can teach a kid how to balance a checkbook in junior high. It is not like this takes anything but simple arithmetic - assuming that anyone actually still balances checkbooks when the graduate. A life skills class can teach this and the financial stuff that has been mentioned, and how to evaluate ads and simple contracts and political claims. Some simple probability and statistics also.
If I ruled the world I’d replace geometry with prob and stat, but I hated geometry, and trig functions are very important. Still, if you got rid of one current math class, replace it with prob and stat.