how much abuse can compressed-gas cylinders tolerate?

I’m talking about the kind of gas cylinders you get from a welding shop, filled to ~2000 psi. Obviously if you knock the valve/outlet pipe off you’ve got a dangerous rocket to contend with, but if that particular component is well protected, what will the bottle itself (when filled to capacity) tolerate without catastrophically rupturing? A tipover onto concrete? Falling out of a truck? Falling off of a roof? Can I hit it with a sledgehammer?

A crack/slow leak is one thing, but would any of these abuses cause it to rip wide open and create a dangerous blast of high-pressure gas?

These bottles fall over pretty regularly, so that’s not an issue.
I’d bet they could take a few blows with a sledgehammer, but I’m not going to test that for you…

When I was younger, which I guess is my entire life, I worked at an industrial gas distribution plant. So here’s a couple of observations and an anecdote.

We only pumped oxygen at our facility, vaporized from LOX. But the the plant in Torrance, California pumped everything. Cylinders are inspected before filling, of course, but the worker that day missed a long, narrow but significant scratch down the length of the cylinder. It was later determined to have been pulled out from underneath some heavy object on a job site. So as the pressure neared 2200 psi the cylinder failed. Stress in a cylindrical vessel will make it fail like a banana peel: that is to say the rupture occurs along the long axis. Anyway, the pieces (I think there were three maybe) DID look like pieces of banana peel and were hurled fast enough to kill two workers, on of whom was on the far side of a cinder block wall. When the OP says “a dangerous blast of high pressure gas” that doesn’t begin to cover it!

As for dropping them on concrete, well… Sometime early in my employment we were unloading full cylinders from a truck and placing them on the dock in a loosely spaced pattern. Later we would spin them into a tight arrangement. the way that you get your cylinders off your hand-truck is to grab the caps, tilt the two cylinders away from you, and then hook the hand-truck axle with your foot and pull it away from the cylinders. About halfway through unloading the truck I miscalculated the amount of pull two cylinders could effect on me. I hung on and went over the top of the hand-truck and cylinders and crashed into the stack of previously unloaded cylinders.

Picture a stack of a dozen 150 lb. steel dominoes going down one after the other and you’ve got it. But the worst part was that just beyond our unloaded stack was 24 fully charged and uncapped oxygen cylnders that having just been filled had not had a chance to be capped yet. Most of those went over too. I sat there like a nineteen year old doofus, embarrassed and consigned to picking all of those cylinders up. What I couldn’t figure out was why everyone else on the loading dock was running like hell in every direction away from me. Hell, people in the adjacent front office were running out the front door out to the street!

It was later explained to me the caliber of the bullet I has just dodged. All those cylinders had fallen over domino-style and not a single cracked valve on any of the 20 or so uncapped ones. If you’ve watched Mythbusters you know you can crack the valve off a cylinder with wild, funny results. My co-workers had of course been running away from the wild, funny results.

The upshot of all this is high pressure cylinders are pretty robust. I’d say any of the OP’s falling type scenarios would, at worst, torque the cap and collar assembly off the neck of the cylinder and if the valve cracked off skyrockety effects would ensue.

The “crack/slow leak” mentioned in the last part, on the other hand, is, in my opinion, almost guaranteed to cause an immediate and catastrophic failure with results similar to the above mentioned incident. It’s really hard to put a slow leak (no Scotch tape!) in a fully inflated toy balloon.

On Mythbusters, they fired a 9mm (Walther p99) at a (empty) propane tank twice, without piercing it. Even a deer slug only penetrated one side of the tank (i.e. went in, but didn’t come out).

Propane tanks are very different from compressed gas cylinders. Structurally they’re much thinner. And when full y loaded there’s orders of magnitude more stress on a compressed gas cylinder at, say, 3000psi than a propane tank at a few psi above atmosphere.

<Bolding Mine>

Cite please for the “orders of magnitude more stress”.

Is the hoop stress what you refer to as stress ? Or is this more of a colloquial use of the word stress ?

I was speaking colloquially, with the point simply being that a lightly constructed lightly pressurized container is under a different level of load than a heavily constructed highly pressurized container.

And the failure modes of something under high load are different than the failure modes of something under low load. We can’t say *a priori *which is loaded closer to its failure point. But we can say something different is going to happen to each of them when they both fail due to either overpressure or puncture.

I was taught a long, long time ago that a standard LP cylinder with liquid in it always has about 275psi inside. The 275psi is the equilibrium pressure holding the liquid in a liquid state. At anything less than 275psi some of the liquid vaporizes until the cylinder reaches 275psi again. Thus the reason that propane tanks don’t have a pressure gauge on them.

Or I was taught completely wrong, which I am not discounting here.

You’ve got part of the picture.

The equilibrium pressure to have vapor and liquid together in a propane tank varies with temperature; see chart. At room temperature, it’s maybe 120 psi, and it will maintain that pressure until all of the liquid is gone. Once there’s no more liquid left to keep the vapor stocked up, and you’ve got all four burners on your grill maxed out, the pressure in the tank will fade away in fairly short order.

As the chart shows, a pressure relief valve is required by law to prevent pressure from building up to rupturous levels if the temperature gets too high, on the theory that a slow, steady leak of propane is the lesser of two evils (the other evil being a violent, explosive rupture of the tank that releases all of the propane at once).

Good explanation. In the spirit of the SDMB, it is important to point out that the pressure relief valve makes the situation worse in case there is a long lasting fire around the tank - causing a BLEVE. Here’s a video explaining it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0jtD_OWLU

Tangentially related, here’s a YouTube video from Russia showing what happens when a truck loaded with oxygen cylinders gets into an accident and there’s fire involved. Many of the cylinders explode spectacularly but some fly around with flames pouring from their nozzles.

Wait until about a minute in, the video perspective changes and the quality improves and there’s audio. Good times.

This is anecdotal but I grew up with welders & torches in our garage. If you look at the oxygen & acetylene tanks themselves you’ll see month/year dates punched into them near the top. These are a record of hydrostatic testing. It wasn’t uncommon to see these dates go back to the early 1900’s on currently used tanks. So they’re pretty durable.

So, you’re saying an empty compressed gas cylinder would not only laugh at a 9mm, but could also withstand a .38 or even a .45 bullet? :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, a 9mm has more penetrating power than both of those…

At a dive shop I saw a SCUBA tank that failed when refilling (2200PSI)
It peeled open diagonally and was in one piece.
SCUBA tanks are refilled while submerged in water, this probably saved the filler and the shop from more damage.
The cause of the failure was the inside of the tank was rusted.

In my experience they are pretty robust. Knocking them over happens with some regularity, I don’t recommend doing it on purpose though. they can probably take a few blows from a sledge hammer. If you concentrated that force with a chisel or such you could probably pierce it. Losing it off a roof or truck is really going to depend on how it lands and what it hits.

When thousands of pounds of pressure release uncontrolled very bad things can happen, I’ll leave actual experimenting to the crazy people.

Know what happens when a scuba cylinder immersed in water for filling fails? You get wet shards of metal flying all over.

Submerging them does nothing to contain a cylinder failure. It can help slightly to cool the cylinders which do get hot as they are filled.
For amusement’s sake, take a look at a video of someone shooting a couple full scuba cylinders with a rifle from 240 yards. Took three hits on a steel cylinder to make it go flying.

No. I’m saying one is significantly stouter than the other. How their relative stoutness compares to any particular pistol round’s penetrating power would have to be computed from the data.

So there’s definitely some level of impact which will penetrate an unpressurized propane tank but not a typical unpressurized compressed gas cylinder. .38, .45, .30-06, .50 cal? Who knows? Somebody does, but it ain’t me.

:dubious: How did the relief valve make that situation worse? It looked to me like it did a pretty good job of letting a lot of the propane escape harmlessly, greatly reducing the intensity of the inevitable BLEVE.

I suppose if you posit a small enough fuel-limited fire around the tank, then the lack of a relief valve would let the original fire burn itself out before the tank over-pressurized & failed. In that situation the presence of a relief valve might keep feeding the fire with escaping tank fuel until the tank BLEVE’d itself using its own fuel.

That’s about the only scenario I can concoct where the relief valve makes matters worse.

This is also why large scale systems try to plumb the relief valve far enough away from the tank that the relieved fuel doesn’t contribute to a tank-enveloping fire. Residential & portable propane tanks obviously don’t have this extra level of protective plumbing.

ETA: Nice BLEVE vid there am77494. Thanks.