How much of China's rise is fabricated?

[protoboard]

@Little_Nemo

China isn’t like the old Soviet Union. If you’re producing for domestic consumption you can fudge your figures and claim your citizens have more goods than is really the case.

But China’s economy is centered on exporting goods. And while you might be able to fake a little bit on the quality of the product and lot on the manufacturing process, at some point you have to put the products on a boat and sent them off to the foreign consumer. This puts a hard limit on your ability to lie about your manufacturing capability.

The USSR exported goods too, though, just not to capitalist countries. Though trade wasn’t totally shut off by any means - Pepsi and Coke were selling to Soviet Russia in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

[protoboard]

@Mijin

It’s actually not a straightforward question; whatever answer someone were to give would likely be misleading, and I think there are a few disclaimers to get out of the way first:

Firstly, the idea of first and third world is somewhat old-fashioned. There’s really no basis for giving russia a special “second world” status, and why lump together into “third world” countries that are failed states, next to those a hair’s breadth from being considered wealthy?

Secondly, this forum is often written from an American perspective (for obvious reasons), and therefore any discussion of china is often polarized into “It’s all a sham; China’s economy is about to collapse” or “Wake up America! China is pwning us!”. Anyone living in China, very quickly sees that neither of these situations is very realistic.

Anyway, the closest I can come to an answer is that China cannot yet be considered a wealthy country while so many live in poverty. However, there is a huge middle-class, and given the population of china, they alone make up a virtual country with a population much bigger than the US (cite).
Granted, it depends how you define middle-class, but still, living in one of the big cities in China feels to me just like living in a european city, with all the amenities and luxuries, and no feeling that I belong to a tiny elite.

So your average resident of Beijing or Shanghai has a lifestyle comparable to someone in Chicago at this point, pretty much? I highly doubt that. Plus, just seeing people walk around you can’t get a feel for things like their workers’ rights, how often they go hungry, etc. It’s easy to hide poverty with totalitarianism, unless a country is absolutely destitute.

[protoboard]

@even_sven

It’s not a “wealthy First World country.” It is a middle income country, which is not a bad thing to be.

I taught for a couple years in small-town China. The change is real, and absolutely breathtaking. My students grew up in extreme poverty- eating meat was a rare treat, their village might be a couple hours walk from the nearest road, and they had relatively little connection to the outside world. As women, the best they could hope for was a early marriage to somebody not too poor.

How old are your students now?

[protoboard]

@bump

How long before you think the increased economic freedom and wealth translates into a big demand for more political freedom? I can’t imagine that one doesn’t come without the other.

Not as soon as you might think. The US has tons of wealth but if anything it’s only made our country less free, and given the rich more power.

[madsircool]

@protoboard

Not as soon as you might think. The US has tons of wealth but if anything it’s only made our country less free, and given the rich more power.

Proroboard, I feel you but there was far less freedom and the rich were far more powerful during the rise of Industrialism and the age of the Robber Barons. For economic and environmental reasons we have eliminated many of the industrial jobs that paid a healthy wage.

[Claverhouse]

@protoboard

It’s easy to hide poverty with totalitarianism, unless a country is absolutely destitute.

Whereas the motto for capitalistic democracies, in this as in all things, is: ‘If You’ve Got It, Flaunt It !’

[even_sven]

@protoboard

How old are your students now?

Around 25.

[even_sven]

@protoboard

So your average resident of Beijing or Shanghai has a lifestyle comparable to someone in Chicago at this point, pretty much? I highly doubt that. Plus, just seeing people walk around you can’t get a feel for things like their workers’ rights, how often they go hungry, etc. It’s easy to hide poverty with totalitarianism, unless a country is absolutely destitute.

The average purchasing power per capita in Shanghai and Beijing is around $27,000. The average purchasing power per capita in the US is $53,000.

There is poverty and even extreme poverty, especially in rural areas. But life in large Chinese cities is completely relatable to your average American.

You’d likely notice people live in smaller houses, fewer people have cars, and consumer goods are generally lower quality. It’s definitely not just like Chicago. But people go out to eat, visit the malls on weekends, subscribe to gossip magazines, play World of Warcraft, take their kids to soccer practice, stock up on stuff and Walmart, and otherwise do perfectly ordinary middle-class things.

Middle income countries are pretty recognizable, and China easily fits the mold. If they are in some giant cover up to resemble Brazil or South Africa or Serbia, they are doing an amazing job.

[Asimovian]

Relocating to Great Debates.

[An_Gadai]

@even_sven

You’d likely notice people live in smaller houses, fewer people have cars, and consumer goods are generally lower quality. It’s definitely not just like Chicago. But people go out to eat, visit the malls on weekends, subscribe to gossip magazines, play World of Warcraft, take their kids to soccer practice, stock up on stuff and Walmart, and otherwise do perfectly ordinary middle-class things.

Europe probably seems like this to Americans too. We generally are packed into smaller houses, fewer people drive, less often, and there are probably fewer consumer goods and choices BUT many throughout Europe are still solidly middle class.

[madsircool]

@An_Gadai

Europe probably seems like this to Americans too. We generally are packed into smaller houses, fewer people drive, less often, and there are probably fewer consumer goods and choices BUT many throughout Europe are still solidly middle class.

(Western) Europe has been living beyond its means since 1945 when the USA guaranteed its security. Had there been no USA or had the USA returned to isolationism Social Democracy in the West would have been much more expensive as Europe would have had to pay for its own defense. Its ironic how many Europeans chide the USA for its inferior social safety net. But, on the whole, the world is better for it.

[XT]

Woohoo…I get to use my How Powerful is China YouTube link!

Do you think the supposed transformation of China from a poor Third World country to a wealthy First World country over the past 25 years is exaggerated or even complete bunk?

Well, as others indicated, it’s a complicated question with an equally complicated answer. China is the second largest economy in the world, they make their own military equipment (which is always a sign of an emerging military power), and have huge potential, an ambitious space program and a growing middle class. However, they have a VERY large population, the Chinese government has some serious issues and has kept social dissent in check by basically promising an ever growing standard of living AND through fairly draconian tactics, they have some serious trust issues both locally and internationally (things like patents as well as their policies in the South China Sea), and they may have some population crashing issues in the coming decades as their population ages and due to their earlier population control policies. So…it’s a mixed bag really. I don’t think that their growth is exaggerated (as others have noted no one thinks of them, yet, as a First World Nation™…and that’s kind of an outdated way to think about countries today in any case) or bunk

From what I’ve heard, it’s common for companies in China to pay their workers far less than they claim to, and even to withhold payment altogether. The investment money that has come into China has led to developments that failed because nobody can afford to live there.

Yeah, there are some serious issues with companies in China, many of which are controlled either by the military (or people associated with the military) or directly or indirectly by their government as sort of fiefs to top officials. And foreign investment is still touchy as well from both sides. But China has made some real progress in the last few decades and it’s astonishing how far they have come, even if there is still a long way for them to go. In the end, it will most likely be their government and military that holds them back, since a lot of the really hinky and weird stuff stems from those sources (not all though…even without those there would still be issues).

Not to mention, the growth in China has come at a huge cost to public health.

I assume you mean environmental damage, since I believe that the Chinese life expectancy has gone up and up for the last few decades and continues to rise, despite those issues.

[madsircool]

May I please ask how we know how accurate are the stats released be the Chinese government?

[An_Gadai]

@madsircool

(Western) Europe has been living beyond its means since 1945 when the USA guaranteed its security. Had there been no USA or had the USA returned to isolationism Social Democracy in the West would have been much more expensive as Europe would have had to pay for its own defense. Its ironic how many Europeans chide the USA for its inferior social safety net. But, on the whole, the world is better for it.

What the fuck are you talking about? How is what you said relevant in any way to what I said?

My only point was that “middle Class” is a broad and context specific term. So it’d be easy to split hairs about what it constitutes between America and China (or indeed within these huge societies).

Also thanks for defending us in Ireland from eh, Iceland?

[XT]

Might be a hijack, but here is one for you An Gadaí…How Powerful is Ireland.

(I really love these videos)

[protoboard]

@even_sven

Around 25.

Right so this is the 1990s/early 2000s we are talking about here. Would you say even then China was noticeably poorer? Because from what I’ve heard China was almost Africa poor in the 80s and suddenly middle income/a large middle class starting in the 90s, but I wonder how much of that is exaggerated again.

[Little_Nemo]

@XT

How Powerful is Ireland.

Ireland’s not even the most powerful country in Ireland.

[Little_Nemo]

@madsircool

(Western) Europe has been living beyond its means since 1945 when the USA guaranteed its security. Had there been no USA or had the USA returned to isolationism Social Democracy in the West would have been much more expensive as Europe would have had to pay for its own defense. Its ironic how many Europeans chide the USA for its inferior social safety net. But, on the whole, the world is better for it.

Are you aware that many of the countries where American troops are stationed are paying the United States for those troops?

[Mijin]

@protoboard

So your average resident of Beijing or Shanghai has a lifestyle comparable to someone in Chicago at this point, pretty much? I highly doubt that. Plus, just seeing people walk around you can’t get a feel for things like their workers’ rights, how often they go hungry, etc. It’s easy to hide poverty with totalitarianism, unless a country is absolutely destitute.

Well even sven has answered this very well, but I should reply as it was directed at me.

No, I’m not saying their lifestyle is comparable to someone from Chicago.
I compared the quality of life to a european city and had in mind a poorer european country, maybe former eastern bloc.

I live in Shanghai. I work in a company where I am the only foreigner. But everyone here is comfortably middle-class; many have nice cars (And in Shanghai that’s not just the cost of the car; a legal license plate costs about $15,000…) and will happily drop hundreds of dollars on a DSLR camera, or an iPhone 6 or whatever.
And while of course millions of people living in Shanghai live in poverty, don’t get me wrong about that, the fact is, it’s also true that millions live the quality of life I’m describing.

[madsircool]

@Little_Nemo

Are you aware that many of the countries where American troops are stationed are paying the United States for those troops?

Are they paying the full cost for our teoops for the full time they have been there?

It is money well spent on both sides of the Atlantic IMO but it has also lessened both the fear and the cost of defense on that side of the Atlantic.