How near are we to solving the problem of recharging electric cars?

[CannyDan]

@xtisme

snip
I just don’t think such a scenario is realistic…not with our current technology. The batteries are too big, to bulky, and too expensive to try and do a swap out. Maybe if you could make batteries that cost $1000, weight a tenth as much, had standardized connections (another problem…like herding cats), with similar performance characteristics to today’s top of the line car batteries…MAYBE it would be workable then. But not as things are today.

-XT

Well, of course not as things are today. That is the point.

As for the costs, indeed they are substantial. But so are the costs of opening a gasoline refill station. Buried tanks, environmental testing and inspections, point of sale equipment (“pumps”) for anywhere from 2 to more than a dozen vehicles, training and safety training, etc etc.

A battery exchange would be little different.

However, there will be no single date in the near future by which a nation-wide fully equipped integrated network of such stations (cost- yes, billions and billions) will be required. Just as there will be no immediate sweeping conversion to electric vehicles. The changes will be incremental.

Triggered by sales of some such vehicles, perhaps some forward-looking service station operators will invest in a lane and half a dozen batteries. The availability will help persuade other car buyers to also make the switch, and demand for swap service will increase, leading the station to increase his investment in replacement technology…

Isn’t this how it always works?

Government could of course find a number of ways to intervene and accelerate the process, likely requiring large infusions of tax dollars. But perhaps the simplest, most effective, and by far the cheapest thing the guvmint might do would be to mandate a single size-and-connectivity standard. Leaving that to be fought out in the marketplace will work, and may indeed result in a better final technique-- but it will vastly prolong the process and make it far more costly in R&D.

(Think of BluRay versus HD-DVD. Maybe BluRay is really “better” and the battle was worth while-- but if somebody had just declared by fiat that one or the other would be the final standard, I could have had really great picture quality several years ago, and cheaper too. Instead I’m still waiting for the ramifications to settle down and prices to drop.)

Sorry, leaving work now-- will check back tomorrow.

[Tuckerfan]

@DSeid

Yes, Tucker a pure BEV might not be a good choice for you. Or for someone who will drive 300 miles without a possible ten minute break at a central location. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Yourself. I’ve worked for companies where they’ve had to add employees simply to compensate for a job taking, quite literally, just ten minutes longer than was projected. The more employees you have, the more than ten minutes becomes a liability. Not to mention a lot of work trucks have multiple fuel tanks because the demands placed upon them means that the standard single tank doesn’t cut it. (IIRC, the van my brother drives has two 20 gallon tanks on it.)

As for your claim that the technology hasn’t been invented yet, I’ve already linked to companies selling it now.

Its not my claim, but from your cite, remember?

It is assumed that high power capable EVs (50+ kW) would now make use of a separate on-vehicle higher-power inlet standard that is yet to be developed.

That’s the kind of setup a work truck is going to need.

Check out that Smith link. (They’ve contracted with Valence if you are interested in the battery players).

I have and I didn’t see anything there which convinces me that they’re at all practical for anything other than specialized uses. Were it otherwise, you’d see wider adoption of them.

And Phoenix has working vehicles with working rapid recharge appropriate for fleet use.

Great thing about Phoenix is that it doesn’t get all that cold there. Cold really fucks with batteries, so much so that they require heaters in colder climates, which eats into their range.

[Tuckerfan]

@CannyDan

Well, of course not as things are today. That is the point.

As for the costs, indeed they are substantial. But so are the costs of opening a gasoline refill station. Buried tanks, environmental testing and inspections, point of sale equipment (“pumps”) for anywhere from 2 to more than a dozen vehicles, training and safety training, etc etc.

A battery exchange would be little different.

Actually, it’d be a lot different. Presently, your training in a Stop N Rob consists primarily of how not to get shot. Tanks are also fairly simple to deal with and maintain. Once a week (in a good station, many don’t do it that often) you slap some goop on the stick you use to check the tanks to see if there’s water in the fuel. Right now, most of your service station employees bring home little more than minimum wage. If you want someone with the brain power to inspect batteries (and it will have to be humans inspecting them, machines aren’t there yet), you’re going to have to pay them more than minimum wage. Possibly a lot more.

However, there will be no single date in the near future by which a nation-wide fully equipped integrated network of such stations (cost- yes, billions and billions) will be required. Just as there will be no immediate sweeping conversion to electric vehicles. The changes will be incremental.

Triggered by sales of some such vehicles, perhaps some forward-looking service station operators will invest in a lane and half a dozen batteries. The availability will help persuade other car buyers to also make the switch, and demand for swap service will increase, leading the station to increase his investment in replacement technology…

Isn’t this how it always works?

The problem is, you won’t be able to do this with an exsisting facility as the space requirements will be too great (not to mention the risk of damage to exsisting tanks). You can build a new facility from scratch like that, but converting one will be difficult. (We’ve got a big problem in the US with gas leaking out of underground tanks from abandoned gas stations.) Then you’ve got places like Nashville which are built, quite literally, on rock. If you want to go down below the surface of the ground more than a few inches, in many areas you’ve got to do a lot of blasting. This is complicated and expensive in area that’s highly developed.

Government could of course find a number of ways to intervene and accelerate the process, likely requiring large infusions of tax dollars. But perhaps the simplest, most effective, and by far the cheapest thing the guvmint might do would be to mandate a single size-and-connectivity standard. Leaving that to be fought out in the marketplace will work, and may indeed result in a better final technique-- but it will vastly prolong the process and make it far more costly in R&D.

(Think of BluRay versus HD-DVD. Maybe BluRay is really “better” and the battle was worth while-- but if somebody had just declared by fiat that one or the other would be the final standard, I could have had really great picture quality several years ago, and cheaper too. Instead I’m still waiting for the ramifications to settle down and prices to drop.)

Sorry, leaving work now-- will check back tomorrow.

Of course, we’ve got a bunch of people who scream at the top of their lungs at the barest mention of the government getting involved in anything, no matter what it is, or what reason it might have for doing so.

[XT]

@Tuckerfan

Replacement packs for the Prius are around $5K or less.

Really? I thought the high performance batteries (which would be needed for FEV’s) for the Prius were like $17k…something like that. I know the batteries for things like the Tesla are REALLY expensive (like $30k from memory). If they are $5k and they are the high performance kind…well, maybe we are getting closer to an actual battery powered car than I thought we were.

-XT

[DSeid]

The on-vehicle standard is not yet created but mutiple manufacturers have off-board chargers extant today.

Sorry for the roll eyes snark but you keep holding up the individual for whom a pure BEV wouldn’t work as if that proves something. Again, BEV or even EREV will not be for everyone. A majority maybe but not everyone.

BTW Altair’s batteries are well tested at temperature extremes as well. That’s why they are a good product for the megabattery grid stabilization product.

As to the swap concept. Well we’ll see how it works out in Israel and Australia and Denamrk as test cases.

[XT]

@CannyDan

Well, of course not as things are today. That is the point.

I was responding to your assertion about tech off the shelf today:

No particular innovative technology needed, no breakthroughs. Standardize a battery pack in terms of size, fasteners, and electrical terminals. Whatever type of battery or batteries doesn’t really matter. And replicate the suitable battery receptacle on vehicles. I’m envisioning something on the order of a steamer trunk, weighing several hundred pounds.

It would be unfeasible, even using Tuckerfan’s cheaper $5k batteries as a standard.

As for the costs, indeed they are substantial. But so are the costs of opening a gasoline refill station. Buried tanks, environmental testing and inspections, point of sale equipment (“pumps”) for anywhere from 2 to more than a dozen vehicles, training and safety training, etc etc.

No, the costs of trying to do a battery swap station would be a LOT higher, initially…and I think over time as well (even assuming we could get batteries that let us recharge them to some standards performance for 10’s of thousands of recharges). You would have the huge capital cost of buying all those batteries (if Tuckerfan is right about 100’s an hour you’d need thousands of the things sitting around fully charged…and thousands more sitting around recharging). Then you’d need all that equipment to replace them. Even using your assertion of ‘a steamer trunk, weighing several hundred pounds’ would take some fairly hefty equipment (especially if you are going to do more than one car at a time…as in a service station today). And you’d still need enviromental testing…and the safety testing and probably peformance testing. With all the training and personnel that implies. Plus all that space…again, hundred or thousands of ‘steamer trunk’(s) would take up a LOT of room, and you’d need the recharge and testing equipment for them all as well.

A battery exchange would be little different.

It would be a LOT different if you think about it. You’d need to be able to service multiple cars at a time, moving steamer trunk sized batteries weighing 100’s of pounds out of customers cars (and into the charging bays), while moving the same load out of the charging bays into the customers car.

This concept works fine for propane exchange because propane bottles are A) Cheap and B) Relatively light. These things are going to be neither.

However, there will be no single date in the near future by which a nation-wide fully equipped integrated network of such stations (cost- yes, billions and billions) will be required. Just as there will be no immediate sweeping conversion to electric vehicles. The changes will be incremental.

I agree with you to an extent here. What is going to happen is that people are going to try out different things and eventually one (or maybe a few) models will emerge. Part of that is going to be based on cost…if it costs a lot of initial capital to build the new fueling stations then that cost is going to make adoption by vendors slower…which in turn is going to impact adoption by We, The People. After all, if there is only 1 or 2 battery swap stations in your town, you are going to have to consider if you REALLY want to adopt one of the vehicles designed to work in those stations. Hydrogen fuel cells will be the same thing…if hydrogen can’t be produced cheaply, can’t be moved, stored and used by the public in a cheap and safe manner, then we won’t be getting those either…because the costs will be too high.

All of these things are probably why (at least in the US) we haven’t really gone hog wild for alternatives, and are only starting to jump on the hybrid bandwagon. Gas is cheap here in the US after all…and no matter what alternative we talk about today, it’s going to be a LOT more expensive, especially initially, than what we already have.

(sorry, can’t get to the rest of your post atm…got to run to a meeting).

-XT

[Chronos]

Quoth Tuckerfan:

Well, the Tesla is not a good vehicle choice if you’re trying to figure out the average driving habits of Americans. Nor, really, is the national average of “less than 40 miles.” since people in places like NYC skew the numbers low. A majority of the people in the town I live in, have much longer than 40 mile commutes to work.

OK, so electric cars are good in places like NYC. As many folks have said, we’re not looking for a one-size-fits-all solution, here. There are some applications that are best served by gasoline internal combustion engines, and those applications will continue to use gas ICEs. That doesn’t mean that we can’t pursue other options for applications where gasoline ICEs aren’t optimal.

[Tuckerfan]

@xtisme

Really? I thought the high performance batteries (which would be needed for FEV’s) for the Prius were like $17k…something like that. I know the batteries for things like the Tesla are REALLY expensive (like $30k from memory). If they are $5k and they are the high performance kind…well, maybe we are getting closer to an actual battery powered car than I thought we were.

-XT

Well, those are most likely refurbed units, so a new pack would cost a bit more. Folks tend to be rather close mouthed about what the real costs of hybrids are. Toyota sold the Prius at a loss for most of its run and GM has admitted there’s no way they can sell the Volt for $35K without goverment subsidies.

@DSeid

The on-vehicle standard is not yet created but mutiple manufacturers have off-board chargers extant today.

Do they all meet the same standard? Or is each one unique?

Sorry for the roll eyes snark but you keep holding up the individual for whom a pure BEV wouldn’t work as if that proves something. Again, BEV or even EREV will not be for everyone. A majority maybe but not everyone.

Have you seen how many people think that the Volt can only go 40 miles and say that they won’t buy it because of that? Nearly every thread here and on every message board I participate in, has someone who pops in with that comment. Maybe they don’t need the longer range, but they damn sure want it.

BTW Altair’s batteries are well tested at temperature extremes as well. That’s why they are a good product for the megabattery grid stabilization product.

And there’s some kind of dispute going on between them and GM at the moment about their batteries, with neither side being honest as to what’s going on.

As to the swap concept. Well we’ll see how it works out in Israel and Australia and Denamrk as test cases.

There’s been rumblings that those projects are in trouble. Nissan (one of the main participants) just announced that their sales took a 40+% drop. Their finances weren’t in the best of shape just a few years ago, and if things don’t pick up soon, they’ll probably wind up in the same kind of mess as the Big Three.

[Tuckerfan]

@Chronos

Quoth Tuckerfan:OK, so electric cars are good in places like NYC. As many folks have said, we’re not looking for a one-size-fits-all solution, here. There are some applications that are best served by gasoline internal combustion engines, and those applications will continue to use gas ICEs. That doesn’t mean that we can’t pursue other options for applications where gasoline ICEs aren’t optimal.

But the advantage of the “one size fits all” model (which we don’t even have now, if you think about it) is you get massive economies of scale. By having “city cars” and “country cars” you lose that, and cars are only getting more expensive, not less.

IMHO, Kamen’s got the right idea, a PHEV that doesn’t care what kind of fuel you run it on. That takes a huge burden off of people, because they don’t have to get rid of their car, simply because someone’s come up with a cheaper fuel this month. Right now, it takes nearly 20 years for the car fleet in the US to “turn over.” If we want to accelerate this process (and we should, for a number of reasons) we’re either going to have to government subsidies (which means higher taxes and/or bigger budget deficits) or we’re going to have to find a way to cut the price of vehicles. A stirling engine has fewer moving parts, so the costs of it should be lower than a conventional ICE of equivalent horsepower.

[Chronos]

But the advantage of the “one size fits all” model (which we don’t even have now, if you think about it) is you get massive economies of scale. By having “city cars” and “country cars” you lose that, and cars are only getting more expensive, not less.

If we already don’t have a one-size-fits-all model, how would we be losing it? And having lived in both urban and rural areas, I can say that yes, we do already have different sorts of cars predominantly used in cities and the country.

[Tuckerfan]

@Chronos

If we already don’t have a one-size-fits-all model, how would we be losing it? And having lived in both urban and rural areas, I can say that yes, we do already have different sorts of cars predominantly used in cities and the country.

The underlying technology of ICEs is the same, this wouldn’t be quite as true with hybrids and BEVs.

As for your perception of different vehilcles being used in city and rural areas, it might be like that in Montana, but not for much of the rest of the country in recent years. Before gas prices spiked, SUVs and pickups were outselling cars by a few percentage points or more.

[gonzomax]

@xtisme

If we start making them then inventors will work on inventing them?? How does that work exactly? Do you think they have already been invented and Big Business is holding out on us…or something?

-XT

Follow closely. If we start making electric and hybrid cars with the technology we have now, it is not the end. There will be people coming up with ideas to improve them. By the way ,if the big 3 are gone ,it will be other countries making these breakthroughs. Many will be thinking of the next big idea . They will get better and better.
If you come up with a better battery system and we do not manufacture them, the Chinese and Indians will be pleased as they ignore your patent rights.

[XT]

@gonzomax

Follow closely. If we start making electric and hybrid cars with the technology we have now, it is not the end. There will be people coming up with ideas to improve them. By the way ,if the big 3 are gone ,it will be other countries making these breakthroughs. Many will be thinking of the next big idea . They will get better and better.

You haven’t really read the thread, have you? If you HAVE…then all I can say is that someone isn’t following along too keenly. And that someone isn’t me.

If you come up with a better battery system and we do not manufacture them, the Chinese and Indians will be pleased as they ignore your patent rights.

Simple question for you then gonzo ole buddy…why hasn’t it happened yet? What’s holding it back? AFAIK, battery powered vehicles aren’t even wide spread in Europe…so, your probable knee jerk answer of ‘Big Business!’ isn’t going to work. So…why hasn’t China or India beat us to the punch and started flooding us with cheap and available battery powered cars? Or, if you want to attempt to be more sophisticated (since the answer is obviously ‘they can’t’), why hasn’t Japan, South Korea or Europe flooded us (or themselves) with battery powered vehicles? Is US Big Business™ keeping them from deploying said technology to themselves as well as their nefarious plan to keep them out of our own hands…though our citizens yearn to drive electric cars and are thwarted by the mustache twirling capitalists?
BTW…you might just want to re-read the post you quoted from me in the context of the question I was asking and in response to the other posters comments. Just a hint…to quote (or paraphrase) the famous Inigo Montoya…‘I dinna think it says what you THINK it says’.

Thanks for listening, CHHHIIIILLLLDDDDRRREEEENNNN!

-XT

[Musicat]

@DSeid

Indefinitely? No. Close enough? Yes.

That’s getting there, and certainly encouraging news. However, I can’t buy one at Wal-Mart, or a hardware store or…anywhere, because that article hints they are looking for investors to develop the product. That’s a long way from selling it.

[Sam_Stone]

The crazy schemes outlined in this thread for making BEV work just reinforce in my mind the notion that BEV is a lousy way to go, at least with the technology we’re likely to have in the near future.

Even if I typically drive only 40 miles a day, I sure don’t want a vehicle that only gets 40 miles before it dies. Because on the atypical days, I’m screwed. People want their cars to be versatile. What if you do your 40 mile round-trip commute, and then just as you come in the door you learn you need to rush back to work? Or you have an accident and need to get to the hospital? Or you just want to go visit friends who live across town?

The battery exchange idea will never happen. For one thing, battery sizes do not fit all. the size of battery that’s reasonable for a city commuter car with 2 seats will not be a ‘steamer trunk’ battery. The battery required for a contractor’s pickup truck would be completely different. You’d have to standardize on size, form factor, and capacity, and that just doesn’t work.

In addition, you can seriously damage a battery by abusing it. If I can just swap batteries any time, I’d have no incentive to take care of it. Neither would anyone else. Gas stations would have to charge an ‘exchange fee’ on top of the electricity cost and profit, to pay for wear and tear on the battery. And the price would be set based on the worst abuser’s treatment of the batteries, not the best people’s treatment. Then there’s the labor cost. It’s just not feasible.

Why is everyone avoiding the idea of plug-in hybrid? This seems to me a far better solution. I have unlimited range, all-electric capability for 80% of my driving, a cheaper, lighter battery, and the ability to just get in and go any time I want. If the PHEV gets the equivalent of 250-300 MPG, why would I care about all-electric? Even if I have to use $10/gallon biodiesel, if I drive 10,000 miles in a year I’m only going to use 40 gallons of gas, so the fuel cost isn’t going to kill me. In all electric mode I’ll use electricity than a BEV would, because i wouldn’t be hauling around 5 times the battery I need.

I could see these vehicles being available with extended range batteries - maybe even suitcase-sized batteries I can buy on the aftermarket or from the dealer and plug in to give me more all-electric range.

This is a very flexible platform. The drivetrain is all electric, and the engine is just a generator. So there’s the ability to swap the engine out for a fuel cell or a bigger battery without changing the underlying architecture. Maybe we’ll have a battery breakthrough one day and get ten times the charge density out of them, at which point I could just retrofit my car to put a new battery in where the engine used to go, and keep right on motoring.

Why would I want anything else?

Of course there will be all-electric vehicles too. City runabouts, urban delivery vehicles, that sort of thing. And there will be long-haul vehicles that might not bother with a battery at all and stick with a conventional drivetrain.

One size fits all is never going to work. It doesn’t work now, and there’s no reason to believe it will work in the future.

[Clothahump]

I’m not any kind of electrical engineer, but I have always wondered if it would be possible to have some sort of electrical car with two battery banks. One bank would be powering the car while the other charged from a magnetic generator built on the wheels, or possibly from a small wind generator. When bank one gets discharged to a certain level, the onboard computer switches to bank two and bank one starts recharging.

Seems to me like that would extend the range quite a lot. You’ll still have to plug it in sooner or later, but more later than sooner.

[DSeid]

@Tuckerfan

And there’s some kind of dispute going on between them and GM at the moment about their batteries, with neither side being honest as to what’s going on.
There’s been rumblings that those projects are in trouble. Nissan (one of the main participants) just announced that their sales took a 40+% drop. Their finances weren’t in the best of shape just a few years ago, and if things don’t pick up soon, they’ll probably wind up in the same kind of mess as the Big Three.

Could you please refer me to some sources regarding these issues? I’ve been following this stuff fairly closely and this is the first I’ve heard of anything going on between ALTI and GM in any way. ALTI was never in serious running for the Volt project and has not been a supplier for any of their other projects either. Are you thinking of A123 maybe?

And Nissan may have the same sales slump that all car manufacturers are enduring right now, but they are still running at a profit - 4.67% in fact. They have committed to EVs as their future. More and more localities are signing up to work with Project Better Place and more and more billions are being invested in building it out. The basic model again is

three primary components:

*Charge spots. These are to keep the batteries topped off with power so that they always have 100 miles of driving capacity, according to the company. Better Place is planning a 2.5:1 ratio of charge spots to cars
*Battery switching stations. For trips longer than 100 miles (161 km), Better Place plans to build roadside battery switching stations. Stations are to be completely automated, and the driver’s subscription takes care of everything. The driver pulls in, and the depleted battery is replaced with a fresh one, without anyone having to leave the vehicle. The process takes less time than it does to fill a tank of liquid fuel, according to the plan.
*Software to automates the charging and exchange process.

Better Place plans to buy, own and operate the batteries and electricity, and to offer kilometers to drivers on a subscription basis.

Better Place has an existing partnership with The Renault-Nissan Alliance. A prototype electric eMegane sedan shown earlier this year (earlier post) features a 100+ mile range, with energy economy of <4 mi/kWh (> 6.5 km/kWh), and peak power of >70 kW (91 hp). Battery exchange time is spec’d at 3-5 minutes.

Better Place says it is committed to open network access and leverages industry standards, allowing consumers to have a choice of make and model. Better Place expects the first mass market EV models to be available in Australia by the 2012 model year, a year after its mass market launch in Israel and Denmark.

Better Place has already identified formed the joint venture Automotive Energy Supply Corporation (AESC, the joint venture between Nissan Motor, NEC Corporation, and NEC TOKIN Corporation) as well as A123Systems as lithium-ion battery providers in its “Better Place Ecosystem”.

I may be somewhat doubtful of its usefulness as a model in America but I have heard nothing of any “rumblings that those projects are in trouble.” Where have you heard this and what exactly have you heard?

Sam in case it has not been clear, I’m with you on this aspect at least: Pure BEVs will have their place but those places will be pretty much those market segments that you described. I do however think that Better Place can succeed in the areas that they have targeted so far.

Musicat, they have been selling them, but they had to replace some under warranty. Investors are wanted to help with their cash burn while they (hopefully) find a road to profitability. And their battery is really overdesigned for auto use (and thus overpriced). Much more extreme temperature tolerance and durability than a car needs. Again that’s why they are focusing on other markets, such as military and industrial electric applications. More profit faster and less competition at least for now.

Clothahump sorry you can’t get something for nothing. Generating power from the wheels slows the wheels down. You do it in place of braking (regenerative braking) but not while you are propelling forward. Likewise increasing your drag with a wind generator must always cost you more than it gains.

[Tuckerfan]

@DSeid

Could you please refer me to some sources regarding these issues? I’ve been following this stuff fairly closely and this is the first I’ve heard of anything going on between ALTI and GM in any way. ALTI was never in serious running for the Volt project and has not been a supplier for any of their other projects either. Are you thinking of A123 maybe?

It could be. I deleted a bunch of RSS feeds the other day, so I can’t pull the article up I’m thinking of (and blog search engines suck ass). I will note that Altair lost a chunk of change last year, they’ve also lost their exclusive deal with Phoenix.

And Nissan may have the same sales slump that all car manufacturers are enduring right now, but they are still running at a profit - 4.67% in fact.

Yes, but they won’t be able to keep that up much longer. They’ve already slashed workers, wages, and hours at their operations, including doing payouts to longtime employees to get them to leave. There is not much fat left for them to trim. Things get worse, and they’re going to have problems.

They have committed to EVs as their future.

And fuel cells. So has GM, Ford, and Chrysler, doesn’t do you a lick of good if you don’t have any money.

More and more localities are signing up to work with Project Better Place and more and more billions are being invested in building it out. The basic model again isI may be somewhat doubtful of its usefulness as a model in America but I have heard nothing of any “rumblings that those projects are in trouble.” Where have you heard this and what exactly have you heard?

Well, for one thing, their plan to give people cars is a bit impractical. And even the EV car fans admit that some places are better for EVs than others. Israel is also about the size of New Jersey so its not really a good indication that it’ll work here, even if they do manage to pull it off.

[Chronos]

Quoth Sam Stone:

Why is everyone avoiding the idea of plug-in hybrid?

I wasn’t aware that we were ignoring it. Plug-in hybrids probably are the best solution for most vehicles in the short term (until ultracapacitors become economically practical, or until we have a hydrogen infrastructure in place, or whatever). We’re already making hybrids, and it can’t be that hard to just attach a power cord to one.

[Sam_Stone]

Pretty much. I guess it looks to me like we’ve got a big piece of the puzzle about to be sprung on us, and everyone’s talking like we need something else. Battery swapping stations? Pulling your battery around in a trailer? Why in the world would we ever go to such lengths, when we can simply combine a small IC engine as a range extender and get 80% of the way there? Is the last 20% of petroleum use that critical to eliminate? Especially since at that level we can feasibly do biodiesel or ethanol fuels?

Why would we go to the trouble of building a hydrogen infrastructure, with all the difficulties that brings, when we can get cars to the point where we can sustainably power them with ethanol, a fuel much easier to distribute, using the existing infrastructure, than hydrogen will ever be, and which we can make in just as sustainable a fashion?