How offensive is "Merry Christmas" to a Jew? (Bill O'Riley situation)

[Voyager]

@Marley23

Muhammad? :rolleyes:

Darwin?

[Voyager]

@justwannano

I’m not sure what you mean saying "Christianity isn’t universal. " Surely you know that everyone is welcome to believe.

And in the good old days, when my ancestors chose not to believe, they’d get killed and tortured. No thanks.

I agree that being wished Merry Christmas by someone who doesn’t know is fine, and I usually don’t even bother to correct the person. Being wished it repeatedly by someone who does know is obnoxious.

As for O’Reilly - I thought good will to men had something to do with the holiday. Using Merry Christmas as an insult shows he understands Christmas somewhat less than the Hindu chap buying presents in the mall.

[edwino]

I’m a secular Jew, I’m not offended by “Merry Christmas” and I’ll usually reply in kind. Yeah, sure, I’m going to point out that I don’t celebrate if we get into a conversation about it, but this is the even that defines the Christian calendar.

I don’t like the term Happy Holidays at all because it implies some level of equivalence that doesn’t exist. Chanuka is a minor, minor holiday and it is pretty crazy how much it has been blown up in some sort of effort for Jews and others to stick their foot in the Christmas door and say “me too.” There is no need for equivalence here. I personally think that the whole Christmas season consumerism runup is insane and us 1.3% Jews need not look for an excuse to get involved. The stores certainly won’t earn money being “inclusive”, with the vast majority of shopping dollars spent on things that will end up under trees. The season is defined by Christmas. Let the Christians have their fun. Let them go to Midnight Mass or Black Friday or whatever their show of piety is. I really think that Chanuka needs to go back to the days of a bag of gelt for 8 nights and doughnuts and some candle lighting, flying under the radar even below the level of Purim.

That said, I’m not religious. I don’t appreciate being witnessed to. I appreciate even less being forced to witness. So I oppose taxpayer funded displays of piety. Even worse is forced participation in carols and hymns at public school. Yes, I suffered through them. No, they didn’t do me irrecovable harm. Let the private shopping malls and churches and other sites of worship put up their creches and Christmas trees and call them that so that they can sell iPods and iGods. Don’t make me pay for them or participate.

Lastly, O’Reilly is a putz. However idiotic IMHO the move to inclusiveness is, he and John Gibson and the rest of the Fox News/rightwing echo chamber crowd have seized on it and are using it as a rallying point to promote what can only be called xenophobia. “Christmas is American” and “changing Christmas is unAmerican” is a small step from “if you don’t believe in traditional Christmas, you are a lesser American/unAmerican.” This is about as McCarthy-est a line of debate as one can imagine in the current political environment. Especially since it is based pretty much on a strawman and lies, it needs to be disposed of quickly.

[Marley23]

@edwino

The stores certainly won’t earn money being “inclusive”, with the vast majority of shopping dollars spent on things that will end up under trees.

I have trouble believing that. It’s a long holiday, and in general, Jewish families are probably at least a little wealthier than average.

[FinnAgain]

I always thought that ‘happy holidays’ refered to all holidays, not just Jewish and Christian, which were from Thanksgiving to New Year’s.

[OliverTwistofLime]

I watch Fox News and appreciate some of O"Reillys machinations. But his religious bent just as President Bushs and Sean Hannitys and the religious right is what makes me cringe…It leads me to wonder why the sudden religious push has inflated over the last few years with some of these conservative republicans leading the way.

[Valgard]

Agnostic Jew chiming in.

I am not offended when a stranger wishes me a Merry Christmas. I generally respond with a similarly cheery “Happy Hanukah”.

If somebody got up in my face about it, once I stopped laughing at “Merry Christmas” being used as some kind of insult I suppose I’d get a little ticked.

[FriarTed]

@monstro

I think, like everything, it would depend on who was saying and who it was being addressed to. I know a Jewish woman who probably would be offended if someone said “Merry Christmas”. As a teacher in the public school system, she made a big stink about the chorus kids singing about Jesus during the Holiday Concert and got them to change the program. Once, when I was a student in her class, another kid cried out “Jesus!” when someone hit him, and she retorted, quite aggressively: “Jesus isn’t here!” She’s also very devout Jew and very active in her community.

But the other Jewish people I know aren’t that religious and would probably only be merely annoyed.

Wow, you know Kyle Broflovsky’s Mom!?!

[FriarTed]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Well there was a bit more difference than that. There was a bit of a sticky wicket over the issue of whether Jesus was the Messiah, for instance.

Actually, the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus (which is what I’m guessing you mean by the Nazaerenes) DID believe that Mosaic law, including circumcision, was still binding. Paul acknowledged that the Jerusalem Pillars (Peter, James, John) still thought circumcision was necessary. It was Paul, in his mission to the gentiles, who began to essentially substitute baptism for circumcision (an innovation which was opposed- at least initially- by the Pillars).

But in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), Iakov bar-Iosef conceded that circumcision was not necessary for Gentile converts- only adherence to the Noahic Law, nor did Simon bar-Iohana demand it of Cornelius & his household. After that, those that insisted on circumcision were out of fellowship with even the Jerusalem Church.

[alaricthegoth]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Well there was a bit more difference than that. There was a bit of a sticky wicket over the issue of whether Jesus was the Messiah, for instance.

Actually, the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus (which is what I’m guessing you mean by the Nazaerenes) DID believe that Mosaic law, including circumcision, was still binding. Paul acknowledged that the Jerusalem Pillars (Peter, James, John) still thought circumcision was necessary. It was Paul, in his mission to the gentiles, who began to essentially substitute baptism for circumcision (an innovation which was opposed- at least initially- by the Pillars).

A marketing tour de force unsurpassed in human history.

I’m gonna bet that Jesus the Saviour was a lot tougher to sell when he came along with a sharp stone, no antiseptic, and…well, let’s not go there…

[alaricthegoth]

@FriarTed

But in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), Iakov bar-Iosef conceded that circumcision was not necessary for Gentile converts- only adherence to the Noahic Law, nor did Simon bar-Iohana demand it of Cornelius & his household. After that, those that insisted on circumcision were out of fellowship with even the Jerusalem Church.

Come to think, I give Paul the endless shit he deserves for all the other crap, but I suppose it’s vaguely sex positive to let the little motherfuckers go without cutting on their tiny dicks…

[alaricthegoth]

who am I trying to kid…

Paul and “sex positive” cannot occupy the same universe, let alone sentence

[alaricthegoth]

I would not want to inadvertantly give aid and comfort to Kid Astroglide, but can we agree that Carols are the shizzle (provided, and only provided, snow)?

[crowmanyclouds]

@edwino

…I don’t like the term Happy Holidays at all because it implies some level of equivalence that doesn’t exist…

The point of Happy Holidays isn’t equivalence it’s a recognition of the fact that in Nov/Dec there more than 30 religious holidays celebrated by nearly a dozen religions or sects thereof.
Here’s a link to an interfaith calendar.

[BluePitbull]

@Brain Wreck

I just want to ask Governor Perdue if he could have his staff chaplain point out the Christmas trees in the bible, or failing that, if he has any idea of the origins of the tree celebration. I enjoy the thought of the staunch pro-Christian gloating over their power to erect what is decidedly a pagan icon.

Would this be considered ironic?
Anyway, it is sort of funny in a contridictory sort of way.

[Futile_Gesture]

Christians getting uptight about Christmas amuse me.

1/ They’ve missed the boat on this one. Christmas for most people is long since past being a religious event.

2/ The whole 25th of December things is just a WAG influenced by a bunch of other considerations.

3/ If they were really Christian they’d accept that Easter is massively more significant to their religion and Christmas is an irrelevant piece of fairy-tale glitter by comparison.

[wonky]

@edwino

The stores certainly won’t earn money being “inclusive”, with the vast majority of shopping dollars spent on things that will end up under trees.

I don’t know. I’m shopping more at Target since they became a target (ba dum bump) for Falwell and ilk. Yes, for stuff that will end up under trees, but because at least Falwell perceives them as being inclusive.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@FriarTed

But in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), Iakov bar-Iosef conceded that circumcision was not necessary for Gentile converts- only adherence to the Noahic Law, nor did Simon bar-Iohana demand it of Cornelius & his household. After that, those that insisted on circumcision were out of fellowship with even the Jerusalem Church.

Only if you believe Acts is historical which I don’t. Paul himself never seemed aware of such a change in his letters. It’s a different debate, though. No reason for a hijack.

[justwannano]

@Voyager

And in the good old days, when my ancestors chose not to believe, they’d get killed and tortured. No thanks.

I agree that being wished Merry Christmas by someone who doesn’t know is fine, and I usually don’t even bother to correct the person. Being wished it repeatedly by someone who does know is obnoxious.

As for O’Reilly - I thought good will to men had something to do with the holiday. Using Merry Christmas as an insult shows he understands Christmas somewhat less than the Hindu chap buying presents in the mall.

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And in the good old days, when my ancestors chose not to believe, they’d get killed and tortured. No thanks.

So you wern’t paying attention when your world history teacher mentioned the Roman sport of throwing Christians to the lions.
Ever read about the Christian martyrs? Seems pagans had a habit of some unusual treatment which resulted in death.

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Being wished it repeatedly by someone who does know is obnoxious.

I agree.

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As for O’Reilly…

He is sitting in his office gloating because his job is to get folks just like you so upset they start threads like this one.

[BluePitbull]

Growing up, I have always heard “Merry Christmas” and “Happy Holidays”.
Being a Christian, I don’t consider “Happy Holidays” as being a political correctness statement.
I never did realize that these two phrases could offend or oppress people.