How offensive is "Merry Christmas" to a Jew? (Bill O'Riley situation)

[justwannano]

@FinnAgain

Not to put words in his mouth, but I’d wager it was the circumstances of the quote with Bill O’Reilly wishing a “Merry Christmas” to someone he knows is a Jew in the context of O’Reilly’s continued attacks on the ‘secular agenda’ or whatever phrase he trots out. As I said in my first post to this thread, it reads like him saying “Hah, this is a Christian nation and we’ll keep it that way and rub your nose in it to boot. Suck it up Jewboy.”

Again not to put words in his mouth, but the Jews have gotten a hard time from Christianity for quite some time. IIRC it was only in Vatican II that the Catholic church, for example, rescinded their claim that it was “The Jews” who killed Jesus.

IIRC they officially said that it was not "The Jews "that killed Jesus.They were probably tired of someone claiming that they were blaming "The Jews ".
Even from my earliest memory of my Roman Catholic upbringing, which was before Vatican II, there was never a claim that all Jews were responsible for Christs death.

[Alessan]

@Johanna

Uh, excuse me? I’m a Pagan Roman, you know.

You owe me one (1) Temple.

Oh, that wasn’t you? The actions of first-Century Romans (pagans all) have absolutely nothing to do with you and your beliefs? Well, obviously. So why the fuck did you waste my (admittedly not-so-valuable time) with your asinine post? I said that the Romans were a bunch of murderous assholes - I didn’t say anything about what you’re like NOW. You are the one who chose to associate yourself with the people who sacked Jerusalem (twice!), not I.

So now I have feelings of hostility towards modern-day Roman pagans that simply didn’t exist before you posted. Nice work, your worshipfulness.

[Johanna]

No more caffeine for you.

@Alessan

You owe me one (1) Temple.

You seemed to assume that Roman Pagans don’t exist any more, by freely using derogatory language. I was just informing you that we do exist.

[Alessan]

@Johanna

No more caffeine for you.

Caffeine? I’m a chronic insomniac with a 10-month-old teething baby. I need three cups of coffee just to brush my teeth in the morning.

@Johanna

You seemed to assume that Roman Pagans don’t exist any more, by freely using derogatory language. I was just informing you that we do exist.

Fair enough - I really had no idea your faith existed, although I really shouldn’t have been surprised.

Still, you have to draw a line somewhere. It’s been a millenium and a half since the Empire fell, and I think I should be allowed to direct a certain level of criticism towards it without earning the wrath of neo-Pagans, Italians, classicists, or any combination of the above. You have to agree that along with eraching many fine achievements in the arts, sciences and humanities, the Romans were also capable of being vicious little bastards when the occasion arose. This had nothing to do with their being pagan (they became no more sympathectic after converting to Christianity) so my criticism is not in any way of your beliefs. If, however, you choose to believe yourself to be heir to the Roman culture in toto, then I suppose you have to find a way to deal with the crimes of your antecedents, much like Catholics have to deal with the history of the Spanish inquistion, and we Jews have to deal with various episodes of intolerance and narrow-mindedness throughout our long history.

Umm… end hijack?

[alaricthegoth]

@justwannano

Ya know I think you are reading way way too much into this.
I learned in grade school that if you allow someone to get your goat they will continue to do so.
Best to ignore it and it will go away.

Now as to the hateful part of your comment.
I would like to see know what kind of comment leads you to believe that "Merry Christmas " is sneeringly a religious slogan.
Also Please explain

I think what we have hear is a failure to communicate, like the warden used o say.
DtC is, I think, referencing a post somewhat earlier wherein Kid Astroglide is quoted as snarling

“Merry Christmas, Joh Stewart.”

I think that’s the “merry christmas” at issue, and, yeah, the translation includes “Christ killer” as it’s most polite term.

[alaricthegoth]

@Johanna

No more caffeine for you. You seemed to assume that Roman Pagans don’t exist any more, by freely using derogatory language. I was just informing you that we do exist.

With utmost respect, it is hard here not to think of the Geico/caveman commericial…

[alaricthegoth]

Incidentally, the Jews did kill Christ, there was nothing but Jews as far as the eye could see.

The whole fucking bunch of them killers and killed alike, solid jew.

[alaricthegoth]

@alaricthegoth

Incidentally, the Jews did kill Christ, there was nothing but Jews as far as the eye could see.

The whole fucking bunch of them killers and killed alike, solid jew.

See, that’s the part I don’t get. What is the goyim’s beef with the jews? Jesus was a jew, Peter, etc. There are no real christians that are not ethnic jews till Paul’s excellent adventure.

[FinnAgain]

@justwannano

IIRC they officially said that it was not "The Jews "that killed Jesus.They were probably tired of someone claiming that they were blaming "The Jews ".

Really, they felt a need to refute a position that they never had?
Where did people (Jews, I take it?) get this idea that that’s what the position was?
Are you familiar with the use of the word “Christkiller”?

Before I start with the cites, a line that’s given the Jews great problems through the centuries:

@Mathew Matthew 27:25

His blood be upon us and on our children.

Now, onwards!

[

Throughout the centuries and still today a literal interpretation has produced a view of the Jewish leaders as scheming liars who knowingly deceived the Roman prefect in order to bring about Jesus’ death. Matthew’s and John’s use of the generalizing description of these opponents of Jesus as “Jews” has too often been heard as referring to Jews of later centuries. That was not at all the intention of Matthew or John.

This misreading, which has contributed to ongoing hate, has now been firmly rejected in Roman Catholicism, whether or not all Catholics know it. In 1964 the Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission taught authoritatively that the Gospels are the product of considerable development—narrative, organizational and theological development. They are not simply literal accounts of the ministry of Jesus. The next year Vatican Council II explicitly condemned an outlook that would blame the Passion without distinction on all the Jews then living or on the Jews today.

](http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0397.asp)

[

Second, as you say, the question is politically sensitive, to say the least. The accusation of “Christ-killer” was used as justification for isolating, robbing, torturing, and murdering Jews. It’s only in recent times–the last fifty years, perhaps not that long–that leading Christian authorities have reviewed the circumstances and acknowledged the injustices of the past 2,000 years.
[snip]
. Therefore, John’s Gospel often refers to those who were involved with the death of Jesus as simply “the Jews”–an expression that was to have tragic consequences as later Christians took that phrase as “gospel” and began to refer to Jews as “Christ-killers.”
[snip]
Joseph C. Hough, Jr., a Christian theologian, writing in the June 2002 issue of Bible Review, comments, “By the end of the second century, anti-Judaism and the Christ-killer myth had become prominent in the teachings of church leaders. The early church fathers perpetuated [this] . . . with even greater vehemence than John did in his gospel. By the fourth century, Augustine and John Chrysostom were among those who gave credence to the awful depiction of Jews as the enemies of God who crucified Christ. Although a long series of papal pronouncements tried to protect Jews against overt violence, the power of the ‘Christ-killer’ myth created a cultural climate in which hatred and killing of Jews occurred with impunity. What emerged was a relentless and continuing persecution of Jews . . .”

](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjesuskill.html)

[

In 1919 the French premier met the Jewish leader Hayim Weizmann, who 30 years later would become Israel’s first president. Weizmann sought Clemenceau’s support for the Zionist effort, but was rebuffed. Clemenceau remarked: “We Christians can never forgive the Jews for crucifying Christ.”

](centerforcatholicjewishstudies.org)

[

Recalling past centuries, however, invites a sobering evaluation of our progress and warns against becoming over-confident about an early end to remaining problems. Those were centuries replete with alienation, misunderstanding and hostility between Jews and Christians. While we rejoice that there are signs that anti-Semitism is declining in our country, conscience compels us to confront with candor the unhappy record of Jewish suffering both past and present. We make our own the statement of Nostra Aetate, " . . . for the sake of her common patrimony with the Jews, the Church decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism staged against Jews at whatever time in history and by whomsoever" and we reaffirm with the new Vatican Guidelines that “the spiritual bonds and historical links binding the Church to Judaism condemn (as opposed to the very spirit of Christianity) all forms of anti-Semitism . . .” We urge all in the Church who work in the area of education, whether in the seminary, the school or the pulpit, not only to avoid any presentation that might tend to disparage Jews or Judaism but also to emphasize those aspects of our faith which bear witness to our common patrimony and our spiritual ties with Jews.

Much of the alienation between Christian and Jew found its origins in a certain anti-Judaic theology which over the centuries has led not only to social friction with Jews but often to their oppression. One of the most hopeful developments in our time, powerfully assisted by Nostra Aetate, has been the decline of the old anti-Judaism and the reformation of Christian theological expositions of Judaism along more constructive lines.

The first major step in this direction was the repudiation of the charge that Jews were and are collectively guilty of the death of Christ. Nostra Aerate and the new Guidelines have definitely laid to rest this myth which has caused so much suffering to the Jewish people. There remains however the continuing task of ensuring that nothing which in any way approaches the notion of Jewish collective guilt should be found in any Catholic medium of expression or communication. Correctly viewed, the disappearance of the charge of collective guilt of Jews pertains as much to the purity of the Catholic faith as it does to the defense of Judaism.

The Council’s rejection of this charge against Jews has been interpreted by some commentators as an “exoneration” of the Jewish people. Such a view of the matter still persists. The truth is that the Council acknowledged that the Jewish people never were, nor are they now, guilty of the death of Christ.

Nostra Aetate was a new beginning in Catholic-Jewish relations and, as with all beginnings, we are faced with the task of revising some traditional understandings and judgments. The brief suggestions of the Council document have been taken up by some theologians, but their implications for theological renewal have not yet been fully explored.

](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/research/cjl/Documents/NCCB%20Statement.htm)

[furt]

@Johanna

My people, the priestesses of Cybele, lived outside Roman civilization in the wild hills where we drummed and danced ecstatically.

I think this ought to be a sig.

[justwannano]

[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Really, they felt a need to refute a position that they never had?
Where did people (Jews, I take it?) get this idea that that’s what the position was?
Are you familiar with the use of the word “Christkiller”?

Before I start with the cites, a line that’s given the Jews great problems through the centuries:

Now, onwards!

…

[quote]

Familiar with the word “Christkiller”? Nope. Never even heard it used before. Sorry.

1964 was 40 years ago. I don’t know how old you are but considering the mean age of SDMB dopers is around 25 your complaints are about history? You’re gonna have a hell of a time changing it.
Now if you are interested in changing someones opinion who is living you might make sure you and he are on the same page before you start.It’ll make things a lot easier.

[tomndebb]

alaricthegoth, I have no idea whether you have gotten into the egg nog early or what your problem is, but you need to alter your manner of posting in this thread, now.

You have posted false statements, statements that may have been intended ironically, but which are posted with no context so that they simply look hateful (and stupid), and comments very explicitly intended to rile up other posters.

Very little that you have posted has actually addressed the topic. This thread has enough material to be misunderstood by posters of good intentions; it does not need sart-ass bombs hurled into it.

If you’re in a cranky mood, go bitch in the Pit, if you are on drugs or off meds, refrain from posting until you get yourself under control.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@justwannano

I would like to see know what kind of comment leads you to believe that "Merry Christmas " is sneeringly a religious slogan.

I was referring to the specific instance in the OP of Bill O’Reilly saying it to Jon Stewart in amanner calculated to be smug and insulting. Like I said in my first post in this thread (and like pretty much everyone in this thread has said), what matters is not the phrase in itself, but the tone and the intent behind it. We all recognize that in most cases, people mean it quite innocently and aren’t trying to cause any offense. In some cases, though, it can be said in a manner which range from insensitive (after a person has been politely informed that he or she is talking to a non-Christian, for instance) to the intentionally, passive-aggressively hostile manner in which O’Reilly used it.
Also Please explain

@Diogenes the Cynic

particularly if that person is part of a minority which has been historically victimized by your religion.

[/QUOTE]

Do you really need a history lesson on Christian anti-semitism?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Johanna

Uh, excuse me? I’m a Pagan Roman, you know.

@Alessan

You owe me one (1) Temple.

[Kyla]

@justwannano

I have a malfunction?
If you look at my first post you’ll notice that I started this discussion wondering why anyone would be offended by a celebration of someones birthday.
Better take a good look inside yourself hon.

You apparently do have a literacy malfunction. Did you even read what I wrote?

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CAN’T CELEBRATE A BIRTHDAY.

All we’re asking for is a little acknowledgement that not everyone celebrates this birthday.

[Johanna]

Just FTR, I think the way the Romans treated the Jews in 70 AD really, really sucked. It sucked all the more considering that for two centuries before that, the Romans loved the Jews and thought their religion rocked. According to Karen Armstrong, anyway. The breakdown in Roman-Jewish relations was tragic and should have been avoided. I blame imperialism.

OK, no more hijack (she says with coffee mug in hand). My grandson is the same age and teething away like crazy.

[Maeglin]

@Johanna

Just FTR, I think the way the Romans treated the Jews in 70 AD really, really sucked. It sucked all the more considering that for two centuries before that, the Romans loved the Jews and thought their religion rocked. According to Karen Armstrong, anyway. The breakdown in Roman-Jewish relations was tragic and should have been avoided. I blame imperialism.

OK, no more hijack (she says with coffee mug in hand). My grandson is the same age and teething away like crazy.

I gotta ask, since I have never heard of anyone outside disaffected teenagers claim to worship Cybele.

Do you perform the taurobolium? The Day of Blood?

How do you distinguish the Cybele worshipped “outside” Rome and the Cybele who sports a big temple on the Palatine?

[FinnAgain]

@justwannano

Familiar with the word “Christkiller”? Nope. Never even heard it used before. Sorry.

Pr’aps then you might want to familiaize yourself with history before you attempt to question it.

@justwannano

1964 was 40 years ago. I don’t know how old you are but considering the mean age of SDMB dopers is around 25 your complaints are about history? You’re gonna have a hell of a time changing it.

First, you’re shifting the goalposts. Your original question was about DtC’s statement that the Jews have historically been victimized by many Christians. It seemed you were ignorant of history so I tried to clear up the matter for you. You actually posted

@justwannano

… there was never a claim that all Jews were responsible for Christs death.

So I gave you a few cites proving just that, and then you moved the goalposts.

But, eh, what am I saying?
Why oh why do you not celebrate my grandmother’s birthday!?!

[justwannano]

@Kyla

You apparently do have a literacy malfunction. Did you even read what I wrote?

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CAN’T CELEBRATE A BIRTHDAY.

All we’re asking for is a little acknowledgement that not everyone celebrates this birthday.

Yes Kyla I read your post.
All I saw there is another person feeling sorry for themselves.
Another "Oh woe is me. I’m so picked on. "
Darlin EVERYBODY knows you don’t celebrate Christmas.
Yall make that perfectly clear.
I’m the one that should be saying “All I’m asking for is a little acknowledgement.”
Someone cares enough for you to wish you a Merry Christmas and you’re saying “Fuck you I don’t celebrate Christmas”.

Take a look on the inside darlin.

[justwannano]

@Kyla

You apparently do have a literacy malfunction. Did you even read what I wrote?

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CAN’T CELEBRATE A BIRTHDAY.

All we’re asking for is a little acknowledgement that not everyone celebrates this birthday.

Yes Kyla I read your post.
All I saw there is another person feeling sorry for themselves.
Another "Oh woe is me. I’m so picked on. "
Darlin EVERYBODY knows you don’t celebrate Christmas.
Yall make that perfectly clear.
I’m the one that should be saying “All I’m asking for is a little acknowledgement.”
Someone cares enough for you to wish you a Merry Christmas and you’re saying “Fuck you I don’t celebrate Christmas”.

Take a look on the inside darlin.