How offensive is "Merry Christmas" to a Jew? (Bill O'Riley situation)

Great Debates
141

[QUOTE=Johanna]
Yeah, I’m transsexual, and some individuals may find a juvenile sort of pleasure in needling me about it, but this hijack doesn’t belong in this thread. Start another thread if you want to poke fun at my religion. This one is supposed to be about Christians and Jews. QUOTE]

Thanks for your explanation, Johanna. For what it’s worth, I have a scholarly interest in both ancient religion and sex. My wife is thankful that my scholarly interests have not lead me to sphazein my offending member.

Rather than start a thread poking fun, I think there are at least a few of us who would be interested in further clarification of your beliefs. I live in NYC: I know at least one Hecate worshipper and have another good friend who believes he is the son of God. But I have never talked to someone quite so willing as you to go the extra mile for his/her beliefs. I do have a lot of questions, especially around the differences between the “statist” and the native Anatolian traditions (aside from the obvious), why there are objections in the community to reviving the ritual slaughter, and what you believe the social role of your cult is today. In a world where there exists a strong norm against public self-flagellation, how do Cybele worshippers adapt to the times?

142

That appears to be little more than your overactive imagination. Before your first post, six people identified themselves as Jewish. Four of them said that they considered it little more than a seasonal greeting and noted that they took no offense. Two said that they found it rude if the person saying “Merry Christmas” went out of their way to make a point that they were addressing a Jew.
You then came back with a post of historically inaccurate one-liners that FinnAgain debunked, and started the ball rolling on your failure to understand that Jews have been rather horribly persecuted by Christians off and on for the better part of 1900 years–a point you resolutely refuse to acknowledge, which displays incredible ignorance or utter disingenuousness.

143

Edwino,

I’m a bit younger than your Dad but older than you. And I’ve had the experience of someone trying to beat the shit out of me for being Jewish too. Late 70’s, college. Fortunately it didn’t work out that way. As Kinky Friedman sings “They don’t make Jews like Jesus anymore!”

And had a sweet Iowa girl curiously ask me if I had horns. No offense meant and none taken. She just never met a real life Jew before and really thought it was true.

144

Just curious, but did you mean FinnAgain?

145

Yup. Confused. Must be hitting the Holiday Nog too early! :slight_smile:

146

In the late 60s just after the race riots in Minniapolis 4 blacks broke into my Grandparents house .They robbed them pistol whipped my 80+ year old grandfather then pissed on him.
So now I should mount an all out frontal attack to stop the celebration of Quanza?
Get a life.
An awareness that there are others whose ancestors didn’t have it so great either will do that do ya.

147

No. You should stop interupting this thread with stupid one-liners ands irrelevant nonsense.

No One Has Suggested Stopping Christmas. (So your silly statement about “stopping” Kwanzaa is irrelevant. And deliberately misspelling it is also juvenile.)

You are the one who continues to be offensive. Your claim that “Jews” are being “too sensitve” is false, stupid, and offensive.

Your attempt to magnify events that have never happened (being offended by a simple greeting of the season with no context) into an attempt to stop the actual celebration is a stupid exaggeration.

Quit while you are behind.

148

First:

Second:

As Tom pointed out, nobody wants to “stop the celebration of Christmas.” The Atheist-Jewish-Muslim-Buddhist-Pagan-Liberal-Communist-ACLU Alliance isn’t going to kick in your door and burn your Christmas tree.

As a matter of fact, I was very disapointed that I don’t have the funds this year to go down to Texas with my girlfriend and spend Christmas with her family; I’ve never seen it celebrated.

And if I had managed to make it down to Texas with her, I certainly wouldn’t have been offended if they’d greeted us with “Merry Christmas Lunar and Finn!” Although I must admit I’d be quite flattered if they went the extra mile and said “Merry Christmas Lunar and Happy Chanukah Finn!” To which I most likely would’ve responded with “Thank you, Merry Christmas!” (as I probably would if simply told “Merry Christmas Finn”)

Now, what you seem to be ignoring, deliberately by this point, is that some people, and no, not just Jews, find it offensive in a specific context. Like an example that was given of a coworker who tried to get someone to play Christmas music and got all in a huff because the person wasn’t Christian.

Just like it might be very odd if I worked in the same office with you and came up to you one day and tried to get you to wear a kipah and said “Hey, get in the Yom Kippur spirit! Whuzzah mattah, something wrong with you, don’t you know what time of year it is?” Or if I kept hounding you for not dressing up in a costume, using a noise-maker, or getting pissed drunk on Purim and told you, when you politely declined saying that you aren’t Jewish. “You’re such a fabissina punim!”

This might be exacerbated if the country we were living in was currently in the midst of a culture war and there were folks who were saying that it was a Jewish nation, and that all facets of our society, including the legal and educational system, should reflect that.

I am aware of the history of bigotry in this country. Which is why, in the right circumstances, the phrase “Merry Christmas” can mean the same thing as “You aint from around here, are you boy?” or, to a black person “You really don’t fit in with the character of the neighberhood, do you?”

149

Tom I’m surprised at you.
It is I who should be offended.
I’ve never even read O Reilly until last night but what I read was in defence of stopping retail management from changing the name of the holiday. point is Merry Christmas is a greeting. If its said in a derrogitory manner its between the 2
having the conversation not a bunch of vuveniles who invoke their ancestors suffering as a reason for being offended.
BTW Tom old boy
The Christians were persecuted by the Romans for 3 centuries. Didn’t give much time for the Christians to persecute the Jews. Now if you just think a little you’ll realize that the number of Christians make it a pretty good bet that they wern’t persecuting anyone for a long long time.Probably a better bet that they were also persecuted by the Jews .
I don’t know why O’Reilly wished Jon a Merry Christmas. I’m guessing he had a reason. Maybe you can tell me. Does Stewart whine about being offended by calling the largest retail sales season Christmas?

I could put up sites that show that 100s of thousands of Christians are persecuted for their religion every year but thats not what this thread is about.

150

For the third time:

Twas brilling and the slivey toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe, all mimsy were the borogroves and the mome raths outgrabe.

Oh, I’m sorry, I figured that since we were through the looking glass…

Odd… considering that you were posting in this thread before last night. So you admit that you went into a thread about Bill O’Reilly when you hadn’t even read/heard anything the man had said?

Oh, and, I’m still shocked that you don’t celebrate my grandmother’s birthday.

Bwah???
Cite? Who tried to change the name of the holiday? What did they try to change it to? Tacomas? Smurfday? Secularbonanza?

Are you mistaken, or deliberately mischaracterizing O’Reilly’s position? He wasn’t defending anybody. He was attacking stores who used the inclusive greeting “Happy holidays”.

You do get it! Oh, wait, no…

Neat strawman. When you’re done playing with it, want to join the actual discussion?

Has anybody said that in all cases the phrase “Merry Christmas” gives offense? Or that in specific circumstances, especially those which suggest historical patterns, it can be offensive?

If you read this it might help you out.

Yes yes, John Stewart is just one of those whiney overly-sensitive offenderati Jews, who are uppity. He is also made of straw.

Can you cite anybody, anybody at all who is offended when stores say “Merry Christmas”? Because all I’ve seen are people getting upset when they don’t say it.

151

Riiiiiiight. Because, as we all know, people were only persecuted in those times. Since then, no one’s ever done anything persecuting anyone. I’d say more but this is not in the Pit. It involves your stupidity.

Jews have been persecuted for coming up to two thousand years now. And you don’t find it at all possible that some jews may be pretty touchy when it comes to other people putting their religion in their faces? I’d say they’ve earned the right to be sensitive.

He’s an ass. If one thing in this debate is certain, it is that; O’Reilly is an ass and wanted to taunt Jon.

Would you expect these christians ( because I am sure, there are christians across the globe who are persecuted. Not in the US, though ), if wished “happy local religion celebration day!” would not be quite unnerved? For Pete’s sake, if you’re persecuted because of your religion, it’s going to make you pretty damn worried and annoyed by someone else thrusting their religion at you.

Merry Christmas can, when used by most people, be just a greeting, as you claim. Sometimes, as in this case, it is not - it is a taunt.

152

I agree with tomndebb. Nobody is “killing Christmas”. They simply want other people to stop trying to dictate how it should be observed or not observed, and how to greet or not greet etc. They rightly say it’s a non-issue, and they want the loonies to stay out of their personal business. There is no War On Christmas, except in the minds of idiots who want the whole country to do things their way. Besides, why does Bill O’Reilly still has cards saying “Happy Holidays”? Will he next attack Pres. Bush as a liberal left wing Christmas hater? Bush has cards that say “Happy Holidays”. The whole thing is stupid. As an aside to the Savers Of Christian America and Christmas, did you guys notice that the big “christian megachurches” are planning to be closed Christmas morning? In light of the grave and gathering thread, I would expect them to be open 24/7.

Maybe I will tell people
“Happy Cthulhumas. May you be eaten first.” :smiley:

Southland Christian Church near Lexington, where more than 7,000 people worship each week, is one of several evangelical megachurches across the country that are opting to cancel services on one of the holiest days on the Christian calendar.
Supporters say the change is family-friendly. Opponents call it a regrettable bow to secular culture.
The list of closed congregations on Christmas Sunday reads like a who’s who of evangelical Protestantism: Willow Creek Community Church, the Chicago area’s largest congregation; Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, Mich.; North Point Community Church in Alpharetta, Ga.; and Fellowship Church near Dallas.
The churches, which rank among the largest congregations in America, will hold multiple Christmas Eve services instead.
Megachurch officials around the country consulted with each other before deciding to take the day off.
The decision makes sense in today’s hectic world, said Willow Creek spokeswoman Cally Parkinson. “It’s more than being family-friendly. It’s being lifestyle-friendly for people who are just very, very busy,” she said.
Many evangelical churches don’t hold Christmas day services, except when the holiday falls on a Sunday.
“What’s going on here is a redefinition of Christmas as a time of family celebration rather than as a time of the community faithful celebrating the birth of the savior,” said Johnston, a professor of theology and culture. “There is a risk that we will lose one more of our Christian rituals, one that’s at the heart of our faith.”
…
At Southland, the decision hasn’t generated much controversy. “We’ve probably had maybe half a dozen (complaints), which is understandable,” said church spokeswoman Cindy Willison. Southland members are encouraged to attend one of three Christmas Eve services instead. A Dec. 23 service has also been added.
Crossroads Pastor Glenn Schneiders says Dec. 25 is no longer considered sacred by many Americans _ especially those who are not regular churchgoers.
“It’s viewed more as a holiday than a holy day,” he said.

Here is a humorous? or sarcastic? look at it from what looks like a personal blog. It’s not news, it’s just one opinion floating in the ether:
http://bunniediehl.worldmagblog.com/bunniediehl/
Again, these Megachurch people are evil
So here’s what I don’t get about these yahoos who run these mega"churches" that are going out of their way to break the third commandment on Sunday, Dec. 25.
They claim they’re closing down BECAUSE Christmas falls on a Sunday.
I don’t get this at all.

My remarks:
If there were a War On Christmas, it would appear that the “evangelical megachurches” are not worried. Interestingly, it could be interpreted that IF some of the people want to keep Christmas holy and sacred for OTHER people, they don’t seem to think they should have to do the same. Or, the War On Christmas may just be bullshit deliberately intended to keep the morons stirred up.

153

I’m reminded of the MST3K song, “Merry Xmas-If That’s Okay:”

If there’s one point we’d like to make
With this festive holiday song
It’s that Christmas comes
Just once a year
So for a few days
For crying out loud!
Can we all just get along?!?

Really.

justwannano, yes, the Christians were persecuted by the Romans. And then, after the fall of the Roman Empire, from the middle ages until the 20th century, they turned around and persecuted the Jews and the Muslims at various points in time. The ghettos were Jews were forced to live. The Crusades.

Hello, ever heard of a pogrom?

154

For the third time:
Quote:
For the third time:
Originally Posted by FinnAgain
I’m still intersted in getting an answer to my question that I asked a bunch of posts up. Just where do you think that Jewish people got that idea that they were being called “Christ-killers” and beaten/killed due to just such rhetoric? Do you think that they made it up? Despite all the cites I gave you, showing at it was a factor as recently as the 20th century?

Don’t know. Since Vatican II we’ve not been blaming Jews for much of anything.
Of course we know as a people yall are without fault never having done anything wrong.
For all I know there never was a Jew that persecuted anyone. Damn you are special.

Now I gotta admit this is brilliant. Kinda like being offended by a greeting.

[ No Thanks. I’m not gonna ask you to celebrate Christmas either. BTW when was the last time you were asked to?

This guy just told me that jon Stewart did.

May I suggest the same?

Yes yes, John Stewart is just one of those whiney overly-sensitive offenderati Jews, who are uppity. He is also made of straw.

Yep.
If you had read my first post without pre assuming anything you’d have noticed that i didn’t even mention him.
I asked how anyone could be offended by being wished Merry Christmas. Don’t have to know anything about anyone to expect an answer which I still haven’t gotten. Just the whining that I have been refering to.

Ah ha. Finally the reason for the attack since thats what yall want to call it.

155

I’m not asking about since Vatican II, you are yet again, shifting the goalposts. (Although it is worth adding that certain myths, like Jews having horns, have quite obviously survived past Vatican II.) I was asking why before then Jews got that idea, as you already denied that there was any such doctrine for Jews to be wary of.

Pardon?

More brilliant than a repeated strawman that everybody already recognizes as such. Surely you have more than one trick, yes?

Somewhat recently.

…
Are you kidding?
Please tell me you’re kidding.

Be careful how you answer, we do have excessive light on hand.

If you want to embarass yourself, yes, you may.
.

Who said I assumed anything? You got into a discussion about a specific phrase that Bill O’Reilly used and said, and I quote:

So if you were ignorant of Bill O’Reilly’s politics, as you now admit, then you really didn’t have much of a case for talking about how one would take one of his statements.

You have gotten it several times. Again I would urge you to read this thread as it seems you have not.

Ignorance of history coupled with a passion for strawmen on your part part does not constitute whining on the part of people trying to explain to you that in specific circumstances the phrase can be wielded as an insult.

Careful, I have a maglight and I am not afraid to use it!

156

First of all

Happy your Mothers birthday.

Gee I hope you don’t feel insulted.

Secondly If O’Reilly has an agenda of saving Christmas as it is and Stewart has one of changing it the question being considered is mute.
As I have said the question of Merry Christmas being offensive is just a juvenile attempt at changing something they don’t like.Reminds me of my kid sisters way of running to Mom with big fake tears tattling on me.
We Americans are too sensitive recently about what appears to hurt someones feelings.

BTW my computer is too slow.

157

Oh for the love of-do you know anything at all about Bill O’Reilly or Jon Stewart?

Bill O’Reilly is a smug jerk who likes being condescending and rude to other people. Jon Stewart is a laid back guy who never takes himself or anything seriously, for the most part.

Jon Stewart is the LAST guy who’d make a big fuss over what to call a freaking holiday. He doesn’t give a shit. But he’s Jewish, and most likely doesn’t celebrate Christmas.

Now O’Reilly is the type who likes to bitch and moan and make mountains out of mole hills. HE throws hissyfits at the drop of a hat. He’d be the FIRST guy to get all in an uproar over a stupid holiday greeting. And he’s Catholic, so he celebrates Christmas.

O’Reilly is the type of person Stewart makes fun of-someone with very little sense of humor. So O’Reilly figures he’ll try and get Stewart’s goat by wishing him a Merry Christmas, because he thinks, “A-ha! I’ll bet he’ll be pissed, because he’s Jewish, and therefore, he doesn’t celebrate Xmas, so I’ll point out to him that he’s a loser because of that.”

Jon Stewart’s likely reaction? “Dude, you need to switch to decaf.”

158

As others have said, you’re raging against a straw man. Read what people are writing.

I’m Jewish. I don’t celebrate Christmas, never have, never will. People who know me know that. If someone who doesn’t know me wishes me Merry Christmas I will politely inform them that I’m Jewish and that is an inappropriate greeting. Whether you believe so or not, I feel that it is inappropriate. After that, if they wish me Merry Christmas, I’d be offended.

If I’m in a store and some clerk wishes me Merry Christmas I would do the same thing. I think it takes some hubris to assume the default position is everyone is Christian and require non-Christians to either ignore it or speak up. I do not wish to be wished a Merry Christmas, though I’ve learned not to take it too seriously. Still, it’s an issue that grates.

Many folks have said that since Christmas has become a mostly secular holiday, we should treat “Merry Christmas” as a secular greeting. I disagree, I can’t view Dec 25th as anything but a Christian celebration, one that I don’t take part in (aside from Chinese food and a movie).

So, what are you upset with? That someone like me doesn’t wish to be greeted with a saying from a religion that I don’t follow?

159

Once again, in all caps, on the offhand chance you’ll actually read it:

NO ONE IS TRYING TO CHANGE CHRISTMAS.

Go that?

NO ONE IS TRYING TO CHANGE CHRISTMAS.

One last time:

NO ONE IS TRYING TO CHANGE CHRISTMAS!

Some people, like Bill O’Reilly, are claiming that other people, like Jon Stewart, are anti-Christmas. These people are liars. They are using a scare tactic to influence the ignorant and credulous, in the hopes that those same people will support their other political agendas. However, the threat they are talking about does not exsist. It is a lie invented to distract people like you from the genuine problems in this country, many of which can be directly traced to the policies they support. They are trying to whip up a controversy over a non-exsistant attack on Christmas to draw attention away from Iraq, the various legal scandals enveloping the administration and its supporters, the state of the economy, and other, genuinely important issues.

I don’t think your computer is the problem.

160

Why not just wish them a Happy Hanukkah in return? They’ll understand in a second or so, and it would be more in the spirit of well-wishing you were addressed with, too.