How to put this? ‘Archeologically speaking’, how old were the Norse Gods (Odin/Wotan, Thor, etc.)? When did the myths first arise? How far back do they predate Christianity? DO they predate Christianity? How about Judaism?
As no one else is answering even part of this post, I will contribute what small part I can.
It is rather well accepted that Judaism did pre-date Christiamity by several thousand years.
You’re welcome.
I’ve heard it suggested that the Norse pantheon has some similarities to the Greek, and that both might be descended from some original Indo-European religion. Depending on how much alteration you accept, you could say they probably have roots or antecedents going back to about 2000 BC.
Sorry, I know little details, but if you are referring to Germanic religion in general, it definitely predates Christianity. If by “Norse” you mean Scandinavian, then I only read that the religion spread northward significantly later and the process was at least not completed in pre-Christian times…
A quick and dirty answer is: The Norse pantheon predated Christianity, but it’s difficult to determine when exactly gods like Odin and Thor first appeared in their mature form. Some of the myths weren’t written down in the form that survives to us today until the 13th century or so, by Icelandic monks, I think, long after the region was converted to Christianity. I think we see some references to the Norsemen and their pantheon as far back as Tacitus, and it’s reasonable to think the history goes quite a bit further back still. At any rate, the origins of this pantheon as with the Celtic, Roman, Greek, and Indian pantheons, goes back to a primeval Indo-European mythos that folks far brighter than myself have reconstructed, at least partially, just as they have the common Indo-European progenitor language. The Kurgans made up this ancestral culture, so I guess it’s fair to say Zeus, Jupiter, maybe Thor, etc., owe their lineage to the Kurgan thunder god.
One of the reasons you haven’t got a lot of answers is because, err, your question doesn’t really have an answer.
The Norse gods are products of an oral tradition and, as a result, were quite fluid up until about the 13th century or so when the Elder and Younger Edda were written. These two books are the basis for most of what we know about them. In other words, their “current” form is essentially the form they had just before they were overtaken by the Christian tide.
The Norse pantheon is just a subset of a larger pantheon that was widespread throughout Germany/Scandinavia and probably throughout the entire Indo-European area. Odin/Woden appears throughout Northern and Central europe, albeit with many variations.
It’s quite likely that this pantheon was originally based on an early Indo-European religion. The gods that the Dorians brought to Greece, for example, have some striking similarities with some of the Norse gods, e.g. Zeus/Thor.
In summary, the origins of the Norse gods are extremely old, probably 5000+ years. But, being products of an oral tradition among a fractious and nomadic group, these traditions were constantly mutating and shifting.
The Germanic pantheon has been linked to other Indo-European pantheons, including the Greek and the Hindu. George Dumézil is a good source for this. He links mythologies by comparing the overall cosmology, how porfolios are divided between the gods, how the gods interact with each other and the human world, and by tracing linguistic roots. Try his Gods of the Ancient Northmen.
But it’s not that simple. The Greek and Roman pantheons were influenced by the Egyptians, who were not Indo-European. The Germanic and Hindu gods were also certainly influenced by the local religions they assimilated. If one is willing to work on conjecture, one can see possible histories of this interaction of religions by looking at the myths themselves. For example, Zeus’ marriage to Hera may reflect a marriage of the IE mythology with a local fertility goddes mythology.
The Norse had two families of gods: the Æsir and the Vanir. The Æsir are sky gods who concern themselves with abstractions such as glory and knowledge. The Vanir are elf-like earth gods who concern themselves with fertility, wealth, and happiness. The Æsir may have been the IE gods who learned to live in harmony with the local Vanir gods when they conquered their people. This is still conjecture from mythology.
Odin, the king of the Æsir, may not have IE origins. Rather, he may have originated around the time of Christ, about the same time as the eariest runic inscriptions. In light of the myth that tells of Odin learning the runes by crucifying himself, one has to posit extreme structuralism or else concede interaction between those cultures. I think it’s Graham Hancock who presumes to link pretty much every mythology in the world (including American ones) by suggesting some entity travelled the globe disseminating knowledge to all the proto-civilizations.
As to a particular date, I don’t know. Writing hadn’t been invented so we don’t have much evidence. The IEs were obviously in Greece long before Christ, so we can assume they were in Scandanavia as well.
One of my ancestors, Njord of Noatun is one of the earliest recorded god-kings in the Norse sagas. “They say” he came from his native Asia Minor “around the time the Roman Empire was growing.” If you believe that he was a human, and trace back the number of generations from known dates and such, you do indeed come up with a first century B.C.E. date. (Some people have given ridiculous values for length of generations and come up with dates c. 200AD.)
Njord, his wives, children, etc. are all gods of the Vanir group as opposed to Odin and such from the Aesir group. The Aesir group might have been an older group in Scandinavia before the arrival of the people who brought the Vanir group. But it’s really can’t be proven.
Because of his association with the sea, and the similarity of “Noatun” to “Neptune”, some believe that both are based on a common earlier deity.
But in general, it would seem likely that known Norse religion goes back at least 2000 years.
On preview, what loopydude said.
[trivia]
Jupiter and Zeus aren’t just related, Jupiter is Zeus. Jupiter --> Zeus Pater
[/trivia]
The Germanic pantheon has been linked to other Indo-European pantheons, including the Greek and the Hindu. George Dumézil is a good source for this. He links mythologies by comparing the overall cosmology, how porfolios are divided between the gods, how the gods interact with each other and the human world, and by tracing linguistic roots. Try his Gods of the Ancient Northmen.
But it’s not that simple. The Greek and Roman pantheons were influenced by the Egyptians, who were not Indo-European. The Germanic and Hindu gods were also certainly influenced by the local religions they assimilated. If one is willing to work on conjecture, one can see possible histories of this interaction of religions by looking at the myths themselves. For example, Zeus’ marriage to Hera may reflect a marriage of the IE mythology with a local fertility goddes mythology.
The Norse had two families of gods: the Æsir and the Vanir. The Æsir are sky gods who concern themselves with abstractions such as glory and knowledge. The Vanir are elf-like earth gods who concern themselves with fertility, wealth, and happiness. The Æsir may have been the IE gods who learned to live in harmony with the local Vanir gods when they conquered their people. This is still conjecture from mythology.
Odin, the king of the Æsir, may not have IE origins. Rather, he may have originated around the time of Christ, about the same time as the eariest runic inscriptions. In light of the myth that tells of Odin learning the runes by crucifying himself, one has to posit extreme structuralism or else concede interaction between those cultures. I think it’s Graham Hancock who presumes to link pretty much every mythology in the world (including American ones) by suggesting some entity travelled the globe disseminating knowledge to all the proto-civilizations.
As to a particular date, I don’t know. Writing hadn’t been invented so we don’t have much evidence. The IEs were obviously in Greece long before Christ, so we can assume they were in Scandanavia as well.
Whoops. This looks like a job for…a moderator!
Substatique -
I’m interested in the possibility that Odin is a latecomer to the pantheon - can you elaborate on the rationale for this? I don’t understand how the premier god would join the cosmos so late. Couldn’t the crucifiction aspect just be a later post-roman contact embellishment?
And - can we infer anything about the pre-Roman celtic religion and pantheon from the Scandanavian? After all, their both IE - and were Thor, et al part of other Northern European religions as well or confined to Scandanavian peoples?
Good answers, folks. Thanks!