Try World Made by Hand, by James Howard Kunstler. The “apocalypse” here is merely petroleum depletion compounded by resulting social and political disruption (there are a couple of terrorist nukes, too, but no full-blown nuclear war), as predicted in Kunstler’s nonfiction book The Long Emergency. (Basic premises currently being debated in this GD thread.) No purple prose, and no zombies.
I thought that over and nodded. (Which a Harry Turtledove character might do about fifty or sixty times in the course of a novel.)
Well, if it’s a large quantity of scum, it would still be scum. If you’re talking about several different types of scum, I guess you might refer to scums. The word’s root is Germanic, not Latin. (I’ll do us both a favor and assume you were asking a question, not making a feeble, pointlessly insulting attempt at juvenile humor.)
As a member of South Downs, I know what you’re talking about. Hanging out with SCA folks, I’ve been part of dialogue something like this:
“Man, when it all falls apart, only the strong will survive. Good thing I’ve got my awesome swordfighting skills!”
“Yeah, if you don’t have a heart attack before you work off that extra hundred pounds you’re carrying, you’ll be king of your own tribe. Say, do you happen to know how to farm, or deliver a baby?”
(Though to be fair, some of the SCA folks I know actually do live out in the country on farms, can get along fine without electricity, and know carpentry, blacksmithing, woodsmanship, animal husbandry and all sorts of useful stuff. I’m a city mouse who occasionally camps.)
Sounds to me like exactly what Obama is promising WRT Iraq. (I don’t think he’ll be able to actually DO it, but that’s what he’s running on)
So, where’s the nearly-won war? What we’ve got is a five-year-old open-ended occupation.
I wonder if I would have enjoyed Stirling when I was a teenager. I used to like Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, though that was for the cool science fiction ideas.
That’s exactly why I like the Dies the Fire series. The writing is terrible (every sword was “punched out of leafspring” and everyone “readies their buckler” once every few pages) but the idea of the world is awesome.
Reminds me – supposedly Steven Boyett has finished a sequel to Ariel. He wrote that novel when he was all of 21 (and it was better written than what I’ve read of Stirling); it’ll be interesting to see how he’s matured. (If at all; some people don’t, like me.)
That’s the thing - I should have read it in high school and am now more than ten years too old for it.
Iraq. We’re about a quarter of a way through a 20 year commitment. We smashed Sadaam’s army, deposed the dictator, and now we’re successfully assisting an allied government against a foreign backed insurgency. The anti-war faction will try to spin that on it’s head ( as the post I was responding to said “out of political spite”, or more accurately, for their own political power ), but those are the facts of the matter.
I guess that’s where we’re different then. I’m ten years out of high school and I still think the series is fun because the idea of “What if we had to go back to medieval technology levels” is a fun one.
The prose is crap, but the story is good.
[hijack]
Christ! 20 years! It took us four years to whup the Nazis and yet some people have no problems with a 20 year commitment in Iraq? Really?
:dubious: A commitment to whom? No “20 year commitment” was ever made to, nor by, the American people nor the Iraqi people.
That’s an interesting premise for a novel, but you’re still not describing anything I’m aware of on 2008 Earth in this plane of existence. I’d consider whether you really meant “successfully”, “allied”, “foreign backed”, “anti-war”, “it’s” and “facts”. But not in this thread. There are probably a few dozen other threads we could take that to. (Although it’s hard to think that anything new could be said on that subject on the SDMB, unless either facts or minds change radically.)
I will admit that, when I read a passage of Dies the Fire in which a local dictator (in the Northwest former U.S.), with a background in the SCA, wearing full armor and using a sword and shield, forces unarmored prisoners to fight him – I felt an irrational surge of anger, and thought, “give me a bastard sword and I’d give that asshole a whole new perspective on the world”. So, although the prose was clumsy, it was effective in some way. I can imagine the whole book being irritating and stupid, but a page-turner at the same time.
We’re five years into a war you feel is going to take twenty years and you describe it as “nearly won”. Isn’t fifteen years a bit long for mopping up?
And where did you come up with the twenty year figure? Either as a timeline or as a commitment?
shrug. I’ve been saying it all along, since before we even invaded. Anyone with a knowledge of history and human nature was saying the same thing. Sadly, most people prefer to listen to politicians. It requires a generation, at least, to depose a dictator and establish a stable government that can stand on it’s own, especially in a artificially created country like Iraq with several major factions who don’t always see eye to eye. I also said that we’d lose 20,000 people during the first year. On that, thankfully, I was wrong.
Then you need to do a little more research using first person accounts, servicemen on the ground and Iraqis themselves and not the media or politically motivated propaganda from either side.
I saw embedded journalist Lara Logan in The Daily Show the other night, and the Iraq she saw with her own eyes has very little in common with the one you imagine. To hear her tell it, American media present a ridiculously optimistic picture.
Yes, back in 2003 you, me and many other people thought that actually achieving such a neocon-fantasy nation-building project would require that kind of titanic commitment – and knew it wouldn’t happen. We never made a 20-year commitment, and given that we don’t yet have a president-for-life in charge, we’re not going to stay that particular course into the 2020s.
Now how about explaining how our five-year-old occupation (with 15 more to go, according to you) is an “almost-won war”? Maybe you’ve got secret knowledge that no reporter has managed to dig up.
Never mind. This is the wrong thread, anyway. The OP has been thoroughly discussed, the thread has been woefully hijacked, and I’d say our work is done.
Wow. I mean, that is a thread hijack. I salute you guys in awe.
wow, maybe I can comment on-topic and get the ship righted a bit.
I’ve enjoyed the Dies the Fire series. They’re a fun thought experiment, good beach reading and solid light entertainment. Not great writing, but it does grab you. I’ve recommended them to other folks and they’ve enjoyed them as straight adventure-type fiction. Prime rib is great, but a good hamburger is pretty good sometimes, too.
Oh, and I will note the series has Stirling’s signature lesbian character, but a bit toned down from his usual cliched portrayals, which have grown tiresome
More post-apocalyptic novels I recommend:
The Wild Shore, by Kim Stanley Robinson
The Fifth Sacred Thing, by Starhawk (some magic – the author is a neopagan and believes it’s real – but no zombies)