The problem with such modern-day folktales and legends is that they are impossible "to pin down on detail and so could easily be thought to “fit” better than they actually do, by post facto selection.
For example, Europeans have legends about dwarves, pixies, trolls, elves, and giants, and probably a lot more - but these creatures are described in all sorts of ways: as larger than people, smaller than people, brutish compared to people, or more refined and magical …
I would love to think that such stories are the result of folk memories of ancient species, but I’m inclined to doubt it. The variation is so great that, even if they were “inspired by” real Neanderthals, the details have changed so much as to be unrecognizable … it is more likely that, out of the whole spectrum of folktales of other supernatural species, we take those that appear to us most “like” what we imagine Neanderthals to have been like (stocky, strong and brutish - more like some sort of troll) rather than those who were clearly unlike (tiny little brownies, or elves that whisk people away to a magical realm).
The Klamath Indians have a myth about a battle between two of their gods derived from the eruption of Mount Mazama and subsequent creation of Crater Lake. That happened about 7600 years ago so it is possible for stories to be passed down through oral tradition over a very long period of time.
I was merely pointing out that the quoted story wasn’t that old. That doesn’t of course make it impossible for such folk memories to persist for a very long time.
I would be very interested in hearing more about this myth.
It is certainly possible for such a cataclysmic event to leave an impression, but that it is a folk memory relies on the same folk living continually in the same area for that length of time. It is also possible that the story is a more recent invention. Though I must admit, the specificity of this particular myth makes it an impressive example.
It is similar to the identification of the Atlantis myth with the eruption of Thera:
It is interesting to note that, despite its comparative youth (mid-2nd millennia BC), and the fact it was located right in the heart of classical civilization, it left no clear “folk memory”, other than possibly the Atlantis myth or the Titanomachy in ancient Greek myth.
Sure, we could go that way. But their origins are a lot more interesting if we shift everyone one space and assume that Mothman was a seal, Nessie was a coyote, and chupacabra was an owl. Now the mystery’s back.
In Roman times the native Britons hadn’t the slightest fucking idea what Stonehenge was and it was only about a thousand years old.
So the oral tradition isn’t that great for record keeping.
Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago, and it’s unlikely an anecdote was turned into a myth recounted so faithfully it made it to recorded legends 2,000 years ago. Or the “hobbits,” who lived – isolated from the rest of humanity – 60,000-100,000 years ago in what is now Indonesia – having anything to do with popular legends in Ireland which is also isolated and on the other side of the planet.
Fun to speculate? Sure. But not remotely realistic and impossible to prove anyway.
Yes, there are some cultures who have developed very meticulous oral traditions, training some of each generation to repeat an ever expanding opus of historical/religious information. But, that’s not something which can be counted upon in every society.
Well, many of us today are their descendants, so in that sense a few of them did as well as any people of their day.
There is some evidence of Neanderthal survival as late as 24,000 YA. Separately, there is good evidence of overlapping regional European habitation with AMH of at least 2,600 years. More conjectural hypotheses place Neanderthals and AMHs overlapping in Asia for at least 10,000 and perhaps as long as 18,000 years.
This is time for a damn sight more than “an anecdote.” The existence of nearby living Neanderthals may have been a primary feature for many generations of some AMH cultures.
tnetennba’s basic point (AIUI) is still valid: the stories themselves are not evidence–either way. There is no way anyone could distinguish, looking back from today, between stories that represented a deliberate effort to preserve concrete experience and knowledge of Neanderthals, versus pure fancies by people who had never heard anything about them.
Yes, it’s surprising how often ancient lore tends to be based on fact. The Lebor Gabala Erenn, a legendary tale of Irish history long considered fiction, contains the perhaps startling assertion that the Gaelic people of Ireland came from Spain. It turns out that Ireland and Spain are both hotspots for y-chromosome haplogroup R1b, perhaps providing evidence of an ancient kinship that the writers of the Lebor were aware of.
Yes, sometimes. Oral Traditions have been surprisingly good sources of history.
The key is sometimes; I don’t think that any oral myths are of Nerandrathals, they died long before we were anything but small groups of hunter-gatherers and chances of information surviving are remote. 50,000 years is 10 times the time from now to the negining of written history.
It is possible IMO that some as yet unknown human species survived long enough to be encountered in historic times.
The best candidate, until recently, was H. floresiensis. The original fossils were dated at about 12K years ago, but recently that date has been pushed back quite a bit-- to about 50K yeas ago.
