Actually, a better example might be “Whiter Shade of Pale”, which very deliberately echoes Bach. Indeed, some think that Procol Harum just ripped off the melody, but a closer analysis indicates otherwise. As for the lyrics - well, damned if I know what the lyrics mean, or even what they’re actually saying. Still a good song, nonetheless.
Forgot to add: You really don’t need to know or understand all of this other stuff, including the lyrics, to appreciate the song.
blowero, the problem with trying to find out whether someone has tune deafness by verbally asking them whether they can distinguish between major and minor chords, hear a modulation, etc., is that it presupposes a technical vocabulary that not everyone has.
It’s like testing color blindness by varbally asking if someone can distinguish between cyan and magenta. A certain number of people with perfectly normal vision are going to ask, “What the heck is cyan?” or “Which one is magenta again?” Which is why is why color blindness is tested with pictures, and tune deafness is tested with audio samples.
One of the links in the message I posted before has an audio test for tune deafness in it; I don’t know exactly what it’s like, though, because it uses RealAudio. (I loathe RealAudio and refuse to use it. 
)
Well, I never thought that song was all that sweet. The music is pleasant enough, but the text IS rather ugly - if you listen to it instead of fantasizing to the melody.
That kind of thing happens rather more often than you might think. There is one song in particular that cracks me up all the time. You’ll hear it mostly around Valentine’s day, but also just whenever.
The song is “All i want to do is make love to you” by Heart. If you just listen to the refrain and the melody, it is pretty nice. Women call in to radio stations and ask them to play it for their husbands or boyfriends. If you listen to what is being said, the woman is picking up guy from the side of the road to take to a hotel to fuck - and in the morning she gets up and goes home to her husband (or boyfriend, that’s not explicitly stated.) Ok, that’s one thing. But she hasn’t done it just this once “So we found this hotel, it was a place I knew well.” She does this often. Everytime some woman dedicates this song to her husband the first thing through my head is “So, is she just oblivious or is she sending her guy some kind of message?”
That kind of thing is one reason for wanting to understand what the music is saying. The other thing is this:
Who would go through the effort and take the time to create a piece of music (or other work of art) if he didn’t have something in mind which he wanted to communicate? It needn’t be earth shattering - a simple “Hey, looka me I’m having fun” is still a message. I simply want to know what was meant - not what I’m reading into it. I may be wrong in my assessment of the meaning - but I want to at least try. I don’t appear to understand the language that classical music is speaking, so I can’t even try to guess the message - and it intrigues the hell out of me that others apparently do understand.
Wumpus:
I took the “tunedeafness” test at the BBC that you pointed out. I would appear to be at least a little off track in the tunes department. The test is an audio file with twelve song clips played on a piano. Some have been “doctored” to contain false notes. Out of six distorted tunes, I got four. Oddly enough, I also picked two as being distorted when they were not.
I’m not waiting for a cue or waiting to be told. It simply doesn’t speak to me on its own. I hear the music, but I don’t know what it means and nothing just up and “jumps” on me. Fantasy I have, in spades. I can read a description of a place and visualize it, add to it, populate it, change it. When I listen to “Hotel California,” the words evoke an image of an adobe hotel, I can see the faint pinkish-orangish color of the outside of it, and the moon lighting the scenery. I can feel how tired the driver is, and how badly he needs to rest. I see as the guy wakes in the night to hear the voices whispering. I see the shriveled up old man at the reception desk who tells him “we haven’t had that spirit here since 1969.”
I really don’t think it is a lack of imagination.
I must add that the words alone don’t provoke the images and feelings. Reading the text (and pointedly not hearing the music in my mind) is boring. Its just words on paper that rhyme rather more or less well (and rather more, I should say.)
I think a way to explain would be, for example, John Williams-the music from Star Wars. Each piece has to tell a story.
Most of it is pretty obvious-the big one would be the “Imperial March.”
Classical music, getting the message or story, is more subtle than listening to lyrics, but worth it, in my opinion.
Oh, and I second Adventures in Good Music. I listen to it every night.
Mort Furd:
A couple of “easy to get” (IMHO) classical pieces come to mind, and I’m curious how you perceive them:
When you hear the opening to Strauss’s Also Sprach Zarathustra, can you honestly say that you don’t get a sense of something profound happening (whether it’s a monkey learning to use tools, or Elvis taking the stage, is beside the point)?
And listening to Rimsky-Korsakov’s Flight of the Bumblebee, can you hear how the flight of a bumblebee is conveyed through the music?
A couple of links if you want to listen to a segment of each:
Mort—
We need to focus for a minute: the proper subject of discussion here is you, not the music.
It’s a pretty impressive bit of arrogance to come along and say that ~1,000 years of art is irrelevant because YOU can’t wrap your mind around it. The failure here is not the music’s inability to reach you, it’s your inability (or, more accurately, refusal) to find what there is to find in the music.
You need to reframe the entire discussion: you should be saying “I don’t get classical music; please help me to get it”; not, “I find nothing in classical music, therefore there’s nothing there.”
That’s all by way of being in the first place.
In the second place, “pop” does not just mean Britney Spears or the Backstreet Boys or whatever. Pop music —as opposed to classical, not as opposed to e.g. hiphop—is an art form characterized by shortish songs (~1 to 5 or 6 minutes usually), generally with lyrics, generally of a verse-chorus-verse-etc. structure, etc.; you get the picture. Pop is short for “popular” of course, which doesn’t, in this usage at least, mean that a lot of people like it (that’s a later corruption of the word). In this usage, going to Webster’s here, “popular” means: Originating among the people). I.e., it’s music that comes from OUTSIDE OF MUSICAL ACADEMIA. As such, it includes Folk, Country, Hiphop, Metal, “pop,” etc. Led Zeppelin is indeed pop music, as is David Byrne, the Monkees, Peter Gabriel, ACDC, Ella Fitzgerald, Rage Against the Machine, Dolly Parton, Jimi Hendrix, etc.
You need a hobby–something simpleminded but time-consuming.
I took the trouble of installing RealPlayer just to take this test. In my not so humble opinion, anyone who can tell the difference between the tunes of “Baa Baa Black Sheep”, “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star”, and the “Alphabet Song” should be able to get all twelve. Indeed, listening to the sour notes was actually quite painful for me.
In my inexpert opinion, you’re tune-deaf.
I didn’t have any problem with the BBC test - perfect score, first time through and like Terminus Est, found the dissonant notes painful. And I’m no music expert, have punctured eardrums, and some low-tones hearing damage.
Mort, I think the problem is that you’re just not hearing everything there is to hear in a piece of music. Maybe the lyrics are important to you because without them the music sounds a little flat. It’s a shame that you are missing out on the richer experience, but there doesn’t seem to be anything you can do about it.
Listen to what you enjoy and don’t worry about the rest - at least now you won’t be puzzled by your failure to appreciate classical music!
Not to mention that she’s doing it just to get pregnant, as for some reason her lover can’t do it. This last guy gets a song because he managed the deed - and what he thought was a magical, mysterious, romantic one-night-stand turned out to be a planned seduction that produced a child he only learned about accidentally years later.
I can’t stand that song.
I would hate to go through life not experiencing the taste of a good steak just because I didn’t know what the cow’s life was like. But if my taste buds just aren’t functioning, I guess there’s not much that can be done. I don’t think I would be so adamant as ti think that the way a steak tastes to others is irrelevant.
There are far more similarities between you and classical composers than there are differences. If you can’t draw on your common humanity, then there is not much that we can say to change that. You seem to shrug that off and respond to reasonable and thought-out explanations with flippant responses like I don’t dig jazz either.
BTW, jazz is still developing and is not limited to the early 1900’s.
Well, I don’t see three-demensionally like most people. That doesn’t mean that I can’t grasp that it is desireable to have that ability.
I do hope that you will give your children a chance though.
Mort: I took the tune deafness test as well. That was the easiest, most “slam dunk” test I’ve ever taken. The “doctored” tunes are excruciatingly easy to detect.
Dude. You’re tune deaf.
That’s all there is to it. I think we all should take it easy on you when it comes to Classical music, and I think you should realize that the reason you’re not “getting” some of this music is because you can’t hear it properly.
Ditto - I also got 100% on the test. I think we’ve solved the mystery of why Mort doesn’t “get” classical music.
Was that supposed to be a joke?
Here you’ve touched upon a can of worms I’ve been carefully avoiding. You accuse me of arrogance. YOU aren’t apparently aware of the arrogance I encounter when asking people about classical music. The typical reaction is along the lines of “(Long snide look down the nose) You obviously have no taste and aren’t deserving of an explanation” when I ask what someone hears in a piece of music. Granted, my taste in music is arguable (hey, I like Sha Na Na) but I get this from people who don’t know anything about me except that I’m not breaking out in ecstasy when I hear a piece of music that they obviously like.
For the most part, I’ve not encountered that here. Yosemitebabe’s reasonable response to my remarks was a driving factor in my asking these questions on the sdmb.
For the longest time I’ve felt like the kid in “The Emperor’s new clothes.” Everyone around him is exclaiming about how beautiful the emperor’s clothes are so as not to be thought lacking in taste and discernment, and the kid just voices his honest opinion. This feeling was what caused me to phrase the OP the way I did. My senses are telling me that there is nothing there, so I presume that there is either (best case) something I’m missing that comes from background and experience, or (worst case) there are a lot of fakers out there who don’t get it either - but pretend to so as to appear to belong to some “upper class” with innately better taste. I naturally trust my senses over someone else’s opinion, and when that opinion is offered with the sort of arrogance I normally encounter around this subject, my senses win out hands down.
Since the folks here have been so reasonable, I didn’t think they were of the second sort, so I started in asking about how the music can be relevant to them.
I’ve gotten a lot of interesting answers, and learned some things about myself and music. Among them, I’ve learned that apparently I can’t sense some of the things that gice music its relevancy. It seems I’m a blind man trying to appreciate a rainbow. You folks have been nice enough to politely point out that my senses aren’t up to the task, rather than assuming that I’m lacking in discernment since I can’t tell green from blue.
Thanks, folks. Honestly.
I’ll go back to enjoying the warmth of the sun on my face, whilst the sighted marvel at the rainbow - and we’ll all enjoy the sunlight after the thunderstorm.
This is horribly insulting to all the people who have participated in this thread. You’re judging the value of classical music by the rudeness of a few individuals is along the lines of judging Islam by a terrorist. I have very little doubt however that the TYPICAL reaction you get, Furd, is colored by the TYPICAL arrogance with which you doubtless begin such exchanges.
Well here’s where that parallel falls apart: that kid was not voicing an opinion, he was stating a fact. You make the mistake, taking him as a model, of elevating YOUR opinion to the level of fact. That’s the arrogance:* I don’t see anything in classical music, therefore there’s nothing there* is a nearly delusional statement. Your model should more appropriately be, say, Helen Keller, who didn’t even know she lived in a world of language—she thought all was darkness and isolation—until the moment she suddenly understood that the empty fumblings of her teacher were in fact a window to a whole new world.
You need to realize that you simply haven’t had your Helen Keller moment, and drop the Emperor’s New Clothes crap.
Turns out neither of these is the case. The third possibility, that you haven’t considered, is the winner: that there is something there, but you haven’t discovered it yet. Background and experience my influence it, like they do everything else we experience, but they don’t create it out of nothing, as you so arrogantly imply. And to write it off to “faking” is simply delusional, dude. A conspiracy built up to centuries of culture, lifetimes of work, and millions and millions of co-conspirators. WhatEVER.
Huhhh . . . whaaaa . . .?
No one is saying that you’re incapable; they’re only pointing out that you’re unwilling. While you sit there and hilariously say, “I don’t listen to pop, I listen to ACDC!”—you’re giving a very clear portrait of someone who has LEARNED to listen to music in one way—in ONLY one way—and refuses to LEARN anything else. You expect classical music to wrestle you to the ground and spoon feed you whatever it has to offer—like pop music does (don’t get me wrong; I take pop music just as seriously as classical music: I love ACDC)—and you refuse to participate in the process. You absolutely refuse to meet music halfway, insist that it do ALL the work—literal-minded lyrics are a REQUIREMENT, e.g.—and call any such participation elitism or educational requirements, whatever.
Like any other artform—any form of human endeavor—you can get a certain amount out of it without education (many people who know nothing at all about music theory or music history have a great love for classical music), but of course you’ll eventually find that you can get even MORE out of it with a little knowledge. It’s just self-defeating bullshit to claim this makes classical music “elitist.” (I don’t remember if you’ve used that word, but that’s the gist of your main complaint.) It’s like taking your digital camera out of a box and figuring out how to turn it on, take a few pictures, maybe make the flash work, etc. Great: it works, you can get something out of it. That’s enough for most people, and is totally valid. Does reading the instruction booklet and learning how to control the depth of field, or set up the self timer, make you an elitist? No, it just allows you to get a little MORE out of the camera. Does becoming so fascinated by the process and deciding to go to photo school and get a BFA in photography and becoming a professional photographer make you an elitist? Well, maybe to the little Furd with this ACDC-brand instant camera, who’s arrogantly PROUD of the fact that he refuses to do anything but push the red button.
What do you think these people hope to gain by dragging you into the conspiracy, dude? Seriously, take it down a notch. MY world will not be a better place if you learn to like classical music; YOUR world will be. Quit acting like people here are trying to force something unpleasant on you—you’ve become so invested in your “opinion” that you’ve convinced yourself that to open yourself up to what these people are saying will be to admit that you’re WRONG. Step back a bit; get some perspective. No one wants to take anything from you, all these people are just trying to GIVE you something. Shut up and accept the gift.
Lissener posted while I was still writing this, and I have to say I agree w/the gist of that post. I’m glad there’s an explanation for your dilemma, Mort - but I really thought you seemed to have a pretty significant chip on your shoulder throughout your posts, like you were waiting for the “you have no taste” line.
I will grant you that classical music is often marketed via snob appeal. It’s pretty funny to go to a top-dollar world-class professional orchestra concert with all the wealthy people dripping diamonds and sipping chablis, & hear some of them snoring by the third movement.
But our community orchestra, while not world-class by any means, plays for the love of music. Nobody gets paid except the Conductor, we put in hours running/managing/publicizing the thing - from renting the music to designing and printing the programs, to setting up the chairs when we rehearse each week. We get guest star musicians who are talented students or professionals just getting started (which is how we get them super-cheap cheap), and we put on concerts that we market to families. They’re held in local high schools and tix are cheap (kids get in free). We get a snorer in our audience now and then, but they’re not present to impress anyone with their attendance.
So what I’m saying is, if you can’t hear the power of the music directly, check out the things people will do just for the privilege of playing it for free - I think this speaks volumes. Perhaps you’ll decide it’s something you’d like to learn to tap into yourself.
lissener: Have you even read the previous few posts? coosa, Zoe, yosemitebabe, blowero, and I have all rendered the opinion that Mort is tune deaf. Has your rage made you lose the ability to comprehend? He cannot truly appreciate music (and really, that’s any kind of music, not just classical) because he cannot differentiate the notes. Is your mind so small that you cannot grasp this concept? We are indeed saying that he is incapable.
fessie: Perhaps that chip was on Mort’s shoulder because you placed it there yourself.
Mort: I didn’t see any arrogance in your posts, just bewilderment and a true desire to comprehend. While you may not have the capability to hear the music, you have instead developed the ability to interpret the words. This is no mean feat. Good lyrics are good poetry, and many lack any true appreciation for well-crafted language. Many don’t even listen to the lyrics or understand them. I am often guilty of this myself.
You were trying to explain what you felt when you heard your favorite songs, bringing your own experiences and emotions into the words. This is what happens to the rest of us when we hear good music. Each of us brings our own interpretation to the music. If you know more about the cultural context or the intent of the composer then perhaps you can appreciate it more (perhaps even to disagree with the composer), but there’s really no big secret: if it sounds happy, then it is happy; if it sounds sad, then it is sad. The music is what you make of it.
Um, thanks, TE, for telling me what I’m feeling, but you got it wrong; no rage, just bemused disgust, with a shade of apathy.
Yes, my post grew out of reading the thread as a whole, the arrogance I was responding to was the arrogance that Mort expressed throughout the thread. The last few posts positing tone deafness are A) not entirlely convincing, and B) hardly an excuse for his continued arrogance.
“Bemused disgust and apathy?” WhatEVER, dude. Sounds like you need to work out a few issues yourself.