What was so great about Mozart?

Great Debates
1

Why are great composers of classical music (ie Beethoven and Mozart, among others) held in such high esteem by today’s culture mavins?

What is it about these composers in particular, and classical music in general that is so special and enlightening? I have heard my fair share of classical music in my time, and I can appreciate it for what it offers, but why the worship status?

I don’t use ‘worship status’ lightly, either. People actually believe that subjecting a baby to Mozart will make them a genius when they grow up. Others claim that Mozart will improve spatial reasoning abilities… Are you f***in’ kiddin’ me?!

Now on to the questions:

IMHO, there are two ways one can judge the quality of a song or piece of music:

  1. its ability to evoke an emotional response.
    This is the point of music. Under this pretense, the music of today (and yesteryear) BLOWS CLASSICAL MUSIC OUT OF THE WATER.

Since when has Beethoven stirred civil unrest by questioning government policy like Bob Dylan?

Since when has a Chopin expressed love as delicately as in the musical poetry that comprises many a Beatles classic?

Since when has a Mozart so effectively relayed the emotional isolation that an individual living in today’s world might feel as that demonstrated in KID A by Radiohead?

  1. the listener’s ability to relate to the music. This criterion is a little harder to pin down, but all the same, ‘popular’ music wins out again.
    I cite two reasons:
    a) classical music can be long-winded, boring, and unfocused at times
    b) it lacks the poetic aspect of popular music by foregoing vocal accompaniment (barring opera)

If you think I’m off-base (and I’m sure many of you will), what criteria do you place on determining the quality of a song, or piece of music? BTW, don’t give the old apples vs. oranges answer… it’s tired and ducks the question.

The purpose of this thread is not to question the validity or importance of classical music. It is to question the superiority of classical music by cultured people vs. other types of music.

So why the worship? Is classical music a last bastion for those who cling to cultural superiority?

2

Since when has Beethoven stirred civil unrest by questioning government policy like Bob Dylan?

I COULD just get flippant and ask "When did Beethoven ever embarrass himself they way Dydlan has EVERY time he’s attempted to sing for the past 15 years. But seriously, if you think Beethoven didn’t stir political passions in his day, you really don’t know anything about 19th century Europe.

Since when has a Chopin expressed love as delicately as in the musical poetry that comprises many a Beatles classic?

Oh right. A Chopin nocturne could NEVER express romance as delicately as “Honey Pie” or “Obladi Oblada.”

3

Blimey.

You got some numbers for this? I don’t know anyone that ‘worships’ classical composers. Sure, some people take classical music very seriously, but then again some people think Britney Spears produces meaningful lyrics for teen audiences. Pointing to a few extreme beliefs does not prove a point.

Well, if you’re going to frame the OP in such subjective terms, of course there’s no argument. Only – not everyone agrees with you, so making assumptions like this isn’t supportable. I can’t ‘prove’ that classical music creates a greater emotional response than any other genre, but you certainly haven’t given any evidence to the contrary other than your own (perfectly valid) opinion.

Huh? How are you measuring this? Again, these are all your own opinions. I personally prefer Radiohead to most classical music, but I appreciate both for different reasons. You can’t realistically frame the question in such emotive and subjective terms and expect a logical argument.

How much classical music have you listened to, out of interest?

Ouch. Again, just because you think that it doesn’t make it true. Pop music (hell, any genre) can be boring and unfocused at times. You’ve single handedly generalised classical music as boring and anything else as not boring? Nice work. And I hardly think Limp Bizkit, Korn or NSync could be described as “poetic”.

Fine. Debating why certain forms of arts and entertainment are deemed to be “better” than others would make a very good thread. But this one is just classical-music-bashing based on your own opinion of it.

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. . . or even by people, like myself, who happen to like music. All kinds of music. Limiting one’s horizons to one particular time period is extremely unfulfilling, you know. For about 300 years, classical music was popular music. “Today’s popular music” has lasted about one-sixth as long, even granting the dubious proposition of continuity of form between Dylan and Radiohead.

You’re kidding, right? You have to listen to the music in its historical context. Listen to the “1812 Overture” by Tchaikovsky while reading about the passioned defense of Russia against Napoleon’s troops. Listen to Holst’s “The Planets” and think about what he was attempting to convey in each piece.

The premiere of Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring” was accompanied by riots. The work centers around pagan dances and primal nature worship–shocking subjects at the time.

You will not find a bigger Beatles fan than me, but if you can’t hear the romance in Chopin you’re crazy.

Hokey smokes . . . it seems you aren’t even familiar with what classical music is “about,” and are trying to tie it to the thematic concepts of rock music. In any case, listen to (and read the libretto for) “Don Giovanni” or Mozart’s “Requiem” before asking this question.

Unlike, say, Dylan? :rolleyes: This is true largely for the current generation and perhaps the generation immediately preceding it, whose musical ears have been “trained” to hear music in three- or four-minute bites. The music of Bach, for example, is so highly structured and focused as to make your objection here preposterous.

! I’m so taken aback I’m not even sure how to respond to this.

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I have to say, that I do find Mozart overrated.

HOWEVER…classical music is another story altogether.

There are a great many forms and varieties. What about Stravinsky’s Firebird and Rite of Spring? Or Rimsky-Korsakov’s Sheherazade?

Classical music DEFINITELY beats a lot of modern music. I recall reading that during a performance of Debussy’s Afternoon of the Fawn, Nijinsky was so arroused by the sensual quality of the piece he began to…uh…pleasure himself on stage.

No doubt, the Beatles ARE incredibly talented. But nothing beats a good Strauss waltz.

6

Stanley Kubric originally had a score created for “2001: A Space Odyssey” but the use of classical music provided so much more emotion. Having “Also Sprach Zarathustra” playing over the opening sequence is so memorable that it has since become a cliché. Ode to Joy from Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony is performed to this day in soccer matches and the like.

Obviously some of the original meaning of classical music is lost to us due to differences in the world now compared to when this was ‘pop’ music, but there is still a connection to it. Many modern composers/song writers take inspiration from classical music even if they don’t always realize it. John Williams is the most obvious example: he is a great composer but listen to Holst’s “The Planets” and tell me you can’t hear the inspiration for the Star Wars music.

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Acco, sorry that you aren’t getting the full pleasure of Chopin, Mozart and Beethoven.

If your OP is meant as an argument, then the long period of popularity is evidence of high quality. If it’s a request for enlightenment, I am unfortualtely unable to communicate in words what’s so great about these three composers. I suggest you keep listening; there really is stuff there that could enrich your life.

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::Thinks about the Allegretto from Beethoven’s seventh that always reduces him to tears. Or maybe Barber’s Adagio for Strings::

No, no evocative response there. :rolleyes:

I love Radiohead. I love Pearl Jam. I even, for my sins, love Bruce Springsteen.

But for sheer complexity, subtlety and joy in the composition, you can’t beat an orchestral* piece of music. It’s just a matter of the number and range of instruments and the willingness to craft a piece of music over more than 5 minutes.

pan

*Not classical, please. Mozart was Classical. Beethoven was Romantic. Bach was Boroque. Orchestral != Classical.

9

I just knew this would happen - taking what I said totally out of context, and above all, not answering the question.

OK, let me ask it this way.

First of all, music tastes are very personal, right?

All I can judge from is my own personal experience. All you can judge from is your personal experience.

When I listen to classical music I do not get the depth of emotion from them that I get from many popular songs of the now. Your tastes may be different, but I’m arguing that the format for popular music lends itself to emotional expression better than does classical music. This is what I meant by popular music being more focused.

I believe that the format for classical music that I’m accustomed to hearing (16 minute epochs that roll along, dry spells of silence, and giant unfocused melodies) is inferior in transmitting an emotional response. I know I’m not the only one who could feel this way. There are certainly exceptions, but I’m dealing with generalities here.

Given, my experience with classical music is limited (I don’t recognize most of the examples you all have given), and I don’t necessarily want to bash classical music, but what TO YOU makes a song meaningful.

If it helps gives me an example of a song or piece that you believe I should hear which could change my mind. I’m open to experiences, then I’ll get back to you.

You are right, I’m not familiar with what classical music means to you pldennison… why don’t you explain yourself?

MattK: I invite your discussion, not your criticism. I stated bluntly in the OP that you are free to challenge the criteria for a good song or piece.

Again (and again) I remind this is not meant to be an attack on classical music… just a debate about why many consider classical music to be high and mighty.

BTW, this way really meant to be a positive post!

The question remains: What makes classical music ‘a finer cut’ than popular music in the ears of some?

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Music tastes are a matter of social conditioning, group identification, psychological make-up, etc etc etc. There is nothing in popular music that makes it intrinsically more emotionally evocative (and vice-versa). Don’t believe me? Try listening to non-western popular music sometime. Is that Tuvan throat singer “happy” or “sad”? Only the Tuvans know for sure!

I feel nothing but a slight sense of annoyance whenever I listen to most of the popular music produced today. But Chopin is a different matter entirely.

Furthermore, there is nothing intrinsically better about music that evokes emotion as opposed to, say, challenges the intellect. It’s just a matter of personal taste.

Bob Dylan has a few advantages in disseminating his music to a wide audience that Beethoven didn’t. And we’ll see how famous Dylan is two hundred years from now. The questioning of government policy doesn’t necessarily make for great music…in fact, it’s pretty much a one-way ticket to future cultural irrelevance.

:rolleyes:

When has Radiohead so effectively demonstrated contrapuntal technique as in Mozart’s 41st symphony? As a musician, I’d rather listen to that as opposed to some whiner communicate “the emotional isolation that an individual living in today’s world might feel” with a handful of simple chords. But that’s just me.

So if the masses prefer popular music, it must be better than art music? There are plenty of people who don’t relate to anything but classical music. So what?

True. So can rock music. Ever seen The Song Remains the Same? :slight_smile:

You might also want to consider the possibility that lyrics are just a crutch for those unable to demonstrate the poetic through abstract notes. That’s the jazz instrumentalist’s viewpoint.

It’s pretty simple: “Do I like this?” If the answer is yes, I determine the music to have merit. If not, it’s not worth listening to for me. And there are a million different reasons I might like a specific piece of music, so I wont even bother trying to address that question. Sinatra, KFMDM, Webb Pierce, Dr. Octagon, and Javanese gamelan all reside in my music collection.

I’m unaware of anyone “worshiping” Mozart or Beethoven - perhaps you can provide examples of what you’re referring to. Regardless, their names are well-known today because musicians, critics, and yes, even the common masses, have found merit in their music (based on their own subjective criteria, of course) for a couple hundred years. Someday, the cannon of great music might also include the Beatles, Hendrix, etc. But that remains to be seen.

Personally, I can detect no difference in the snobbishness of listeners of popular music as opposed to those who enjoy art music. Most people who enjoy old time country music would dismiss rap as garbage, most people that enjoy 80s hair metal would call Sinatra “old fart’s music” and so on.

Delusions of cultural superiority aren’t the sole domain of the educated, the rich, etc.

11

  1. The OP seems to equate expression of emotion, political viewpoint, etc with lyrics. This is undoubtedly true in pop music–if you remove the lyrics, you’re only left with a simple melody and an even simpler rhythm. As has been eloquently stated already, orchestral/“classical” music has often been able to get its point across without lyrics. As far as touching emotions: I love rock, I was raised on rock–but only classical music can make my hair stand on end.

  2. A pop song – even more so, a rock song-- has an extremely simple melody, a few instruments, a 4/4 beat. It’s like trying to paint with 3 colors. A classical composer has a much larger palette to choose from: dozens of instruments, entering, leaving, harmonizing, counter-pointing, as he chooses; he can modulate between keys; alter the tempo or even the meter; change the dynamics. And in a symphony, he’s got 4 movements to play with, so he can do something different in each one.

  3. One must admit that we have the advantage in that only the best classical music is still around (how much Salieri do you have in your collection?) while we’re still bombarded with both wheat & chaff in the pop world.

  4. The OP’er would, with all due respect, probably benefit greatly from your basic Music Appreciation 101. Classical music makes a lot more sense if you know what you’re hearing–how a first movement is broken down into exposition, development, recapitulation; how a fugue works; what’s a theme & variation. Try it. You’ll like it.

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Well, actually, Beethoven’s “Eroica Symphony” was about the French Revolution and Napoleon, his opera Fidelo was censored by the government for revolutionary themes, his “Battle Symphony” was in honor of Wellington’s victory, and he caused controversy when he wrote the music for the “Ode to Joy”, because the author of the lyrics was a radical. The 5th and 9th symphonies are also political, and, after the Russian Revolution, Beethoven’s music was popular with the Soviet Communists.

13

As Captain Amazing pointed out, “Ode to Joy” caused controversy. I recall hearing somewhere that the original name of the piece was “Ode to Liberty” but was change to avoid further controversy (correct me if I am wrong). About expressing feelings:

  1. Tchaikovsky’s Sixth Symphony- Each movement represents a period in a man’s life (childhood, adolescent, young adulthood, middle age, old age, death)

  2. Vivaldi’s Four Seasons

  3. Hi Opal! I forgot.

Really, my 2 examples are but a tiny tiny part of all the other classical music that expresses emotions.

14

What are the aspects of popular music that you find poetic? IMO, the two terms do not even belong in the same sentence. There is nothing poetic about Britney Spears belting out “Hit me baby one more time”, or Limp Bizkit tunelessly howling through a cover of “Faith.” Is Sir Mix-a-Lot channelling the spirit of Wordsworth when he says “My anaconda don’t want none unless you got buns, hun?”

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:smiley:

16

I won’t go so far as to say you’re wrong…just that I’ve never heard this, and it seems unlikely. Beethoven’s lyrics are taken from a poem by Friedrich Schiller called “Ode to Joy”, which is all about…joy (freude). If it was ever about “Liberty”, Schiller must’ve done a massive re-write.

17

The story of the original, discarded, “Ode an die Freiheit” lyrics is, IIRC (trying to remember what the liner notes for the Bernstein in Berlin album said about it, as I can’t find that CD… Grrrr…) a bit of an urban legend. However, you can sing “freiheit” in the place of “freude” and it works just as well, which was all that was supposed to be different. In the CD I referred to parenthetically, they did just that in celebration of the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Oh, and I happen to love the 26 minute version of “Dazed and Confused” from The Song Remains the Same, although I’ve never seen the film.

18

<<<Quote from Acco40 “…but I’m arguing that the format for popular music lends itself to emotional expression better than does classical music.”

Some of the emotion from any piece of music gets diminished as time passes. Pete Seeger’s “Waist Deep in the Big Muddy” doesn’t evoke the same emotions in today’s generation as it did to people growing up during Vietnam. Many of the great protest songs from that period are now just ‘oldies’ on the classic rock station (such as ‘For What It’s Worth’, or “Alice’s Restaurant” which is now considered a novelty song). These songs lost most of their emotions in just a couple decades, imagine how fast any emotional connection to today’s songs will last. Classical music has lost much of it’s emotional connotation due to being so far removed from the subject matter that some of these pieces were written about, plus we have been exposed to these pieces from our earliest memories (whether we liked it or not) and they have just always ‘been there’ without an obvious connection to any of our generations.

As for orchestrated music, that will probably never go away. It fits so well in movie soudtracks and also in pop music such as many Led Zeppelin, Beatles, and Moody Blues songs. Another good example is The Verve’s “Bitter Sweet Symphony”.

Classical music obviously doesn’t fit into the 3 ½ minute pop-hit time frame that radio stations play between commercials and a lot of the classical work that is out there may not evoke an emotional response, but do many of these current songs really impact most people emotionally? Look at shows like “Making the Band” and “Pop Stars”(?) – they are coming out and TELLING you that they are making a cookie cutter, seen one seen them all band and show you how they did it and making them somewhat successful. How can bands like this touch people’s emotions? Obviously not all current bands are like this but large numbers of them are trying to play off the success of other groups and not being very original. If a current group makes a song that touches people emotionally they would be pressured by the record companies to make two or three more albums (CD’s, sorry) that are a variation of their successful song, or another group would make their own version of the song with a simlar ‘feel’ to it if they think they know what made it successful.

19

Ugh. Lost another one to the MTV generation - 3:05 and a music video to go with it.

“Instant gratification takes too long.” - “Postcards From The Edge.”

Esprix

20

The OP reminds me of those high-school students who complain that Shakespeare is a bunch of boring rubbish that no one in their right mind would read unless forced to. I guess we’ve all been through that stage, so I will try to illuminate those who find classical music too difficult or inaccessible to enjoy. It starts with listening.

The trick when it comes to understanding complicated things–and I am not talking about 3-minute pop songs composed after the band leafed once through “Cords For Dummies”–is to perceive and understand the complexities involved, because they are invariably a carefully crafted part of the entire work.

Ever read William Blake’s “The Sick Rose”? It consists of only 8 short lines, but if you have never encountered it before, 5 hours of scrutinizing the 8 lines will probably not be sufficient to understand the poem. As you study it, and also the background required to understand the poem, a special intrinsic beauty develops right before your eyes, and you realize that each word–each sound–was placed so for a specific purpose. Once you learn how to appreciate something as complex as poetry–its emotional, aesthetic, and intellectual values–an entire new universe opens up.

So let’s not confuse poetry with pop songs. There is little poetry in modern music. S.T. Coleridge is poetry–Bob Dylan rather less so, although his contributions are important to an extent (Dylan is pop poetry). Most modern “musicians” are completely removed from poetry. On the other hand, there is infinite poetry in the music of the great famous masters: Mozart for the classical, Beethoven for the Romantic, and Bach for the Baroque period. Note that I use the word classical in this post generally to refer to a variety of music encompassing Baroque, Romantic, Classical, as well as modern composers.

To appreciate such music, I would suggest calming yourself, clearing pop tunes out of your head, letting some sunshine in, and listening to Beethoven’s 6th symphony (“Pastoral”) in complete peace (preferably with von Karajan conducting). The symphony describes a simple trip to the countryside. You may think that’s banal compared to the usual self-promotion, sex, violence, and desperate love everyone spouts these days, but Beethoven’s music paints both the landscape and his trip with strong strokes that are evocative and infectious; once you hear it you will never forget it, and will probably hum it without ever realizing on your next stroll in the sun.

Or, if you are the kind of person who wants major action in your music, nothing can beat the subtle and continuous complexities of Bach’s organ works. I recommend above all the popular and accessible “Toccata e fuga in D minor” (make sure it is in D minor), an extremely forceful piece the opening of which has been used in several horror movies to introduce characters of such majesty and power as Dracula (you WILL recognize the music if you have the correct piece). For the softer side of Bach, try “Triosonate”, which are highly defined and extremely soothing pieces.

For something mysterious, colourful, and adventurous, I recommend Rimsky-Korsakov’s “Scheherezade”. In particular, the recording with Riccardo Muti conducting, as that is the best interpretation I have heard of this piece yet. The piece is a beautiful and haunting mix of West and East, and uses subject matter from 1001 Nights. Or you could always choose “Flight of the bumblebee”, another outstanding work by the same composer.

If you want something completely abstract, wholly original, and devastatingly modern, try Luigi Nono: “Contrappunto dialettico alla mente” comes to mind, although his work is extremely difficult and relies on the total listening experience more than the development of themes.

If you want short, I can’t think of any 3-minute pieces. You can’t do justice to composers by listening to a 3-minute segment ripped out of a larger piece of music. But you could try minimalism, perhaps some of Philip Glass will interest you. Try “Glassworks”; it contains smooth, flowing melodies alternated with fast and furious climaxes. The pieces are about 5 minutes each or thereabouts, but meant to be listened in sequence, not individually.

My easiest suggestion is to rent out Disney’s Fantasia. I have not see the new one, but the original one has a lovely selection of classical music and animation, and the end segment combined Moussorgky’s “A Night on Bare Mountain” with an Ave Maria to describe… well, I can’t describe it in this already lengthy post (demons, darkness, spirits…), but it appeals to some very basic human images and I consider it Disney’s masterpiece. The whole video is excellent.

It takes effort to understand classical music, just like it takes effort to understand Shakespeare or Malory the first time you read them. Once you manage to break through the comprehension barrier, you will probably find the rewards are considerable, even if you do not like certain subject matter.